I am a newbie to the forum and just picked up an '08 VStar 1100 Custom yesterday. It has only 1015 miles. I used synthetic oil in my previous bike (Suzuki VS800 Intruder). I did not see any info in the owner's manual but I was wondering if the bike has to have a certain # of miles before switching to a sysnthetic oil. In cars, it's recommended to let the engine break in on dyno oil until the valves seat properly.

Can anyone tell me when it would be ok to switch to synthetic in my 1100?

Is the Yamaha synthetic the way to go or are there other good choices?

Thanks....

I have an 06 1100 classic and have been using Amsoil 20w50 for the past 35k miles. I know have 60k with no oil useage. I would wait until the engine has at least 5k miles before switching to the synthetic. but this is just my opinion. Try the Amsoil web site for more information.

I am a newbie to this forum as well..congrats on the custom....the yamaha synthetic is a good oil as is the amsoil......I run Mobil 1 synthetic 20w-50w summer and 10w-40w winter in my road*.....the motorcycle specific Mobil 1......5 k would be about right for the break-in period as the main thing is the rings need a few miles to get fully seated in.....after that..pick a name brand motorcycle specific oil you like and that is readily available to you and enjoy.

Thanks for the advice on waiting for 5,000 or so miles until the rings are properly seated before switching over to synthetic oil. I have heard that same advice for high performance cars. I guess an engine is an engine, no matter what frame surrounds it.

My bike has not yet had its initial service done on it. As I mentioned when I started this thread, I bought the bike a month ago with only 1015 miles on it. For this initial service, since it has a factory warranty on it until next July, I will take it to a local Yamaha dealer to check it over and make any adjustements that may be needed. I will also have the dealer install the oil filter relocation kit I just bought since I want them to change the oil anyway. After that, I will most likely put the bike away for the season since it is getting pretty chilly here in the Boston area. :mad:

No break-in period is necessary. The initial oil change is to get machining and casting debris out of the engine.

At that point, you can switch to a Synthetic oil.

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Is it really necessary to use motorcycle synthetic or can reg synthetic be used in a bike?
I have read articles that it really doesn't make a difference.

Is it really necessary to use motorcycle synthetic or can reg synthetic be used in a bike?
I have read articles that it really doesn't make a difference.

You can use synthetic from the first oil change, I've done it on several cars and motorcycles.

You don't really need motorcycle oil, but if you use auto oil check the API service circle on the back. If it says "energy conserving" the additives may cause clutch slippage.

Back in the old days it was easy, any auto Mobil 1 with a red cap was safe to use in bikes. But they keep changing their packaging, so you have to watch the label on the back of the bottle.

steve,

My opinion, as the Amsoil dealer said, after the 600 mile check up and oil change it would be OK to start Synthetic oil.

Here is some reading about oils. Might help you make the choice.

http://www.sloneservices.com/SilverBack/VStar1100-FAQ-01.htm#Which-Oil

Dave

Is it really necessary to use motorcycle synthetic or can reg synthetic be used in a bike?
I have read articles that it really doesn't make a difference.

steve,

My opinion, as the Amsoil dealer said, after the 600 mile check up and oil change it would be OK to start Synthetic oil.

Here is some reading about oils. Might help you make the choice.

http://www.sloneservices.com/SilverBack/VStar1100-FAQ-01.htm#Which-Oil

Dave

If for some reason, you wish to use an automotive oil, here is what is required. An API Rating of SG... A higher API Rating MAY be used (SH, SL, etc...) BUT, it must then carry a JASO MA or MA 2 Rating.

Auto and Diesel oils today have reduced amounts of ZDP which is an Anti-Wear agent especially for the cam and lifters. Late model Auto/Diesel engines require much less ZDP as they utilize Roller Lifters.

Not only that, A Premium M/C oil will have additives for the clutch, Anti-Wear additives for the tranny, Anti-Rust and Corrosion Inhibitors which are necessary for non running periods as short as 2 weeks.

If someone tells you there is no difference between M/C oils and Auto/Diesel oils, they don't have a clue to what they are talking about.

Look at these tests http://bestoil4you.com/files/MC_Oil_Study.pdf and pick one of the Top 3 Finishers, I believe page 23, and you will be assured of having one of the Best oils available.

Oil, is the LifeBlood of your engine. The oil filter, is the Kidney that keeps it clean.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

If for some reason, you wish to use an automotive oil, here is what is required. An API Rating of SG... A higher API Rating MAY be used (SH, SL, etc...) BUT, it must then carry a JASO MA or MA 2 Rating.

Auto and Diesel oils today have reduced amounts of ZDP which is an Anti-Wear agent especially for the cam and lifters. Late model Auto/Diesel engines require much less ZDP as they utilize Roller Lifters.

Not only that, A Premium M/C oil will have additives for the clutch, Anti-Wear additives for the tranny, Anti-Rust and Corrosion Inhibitors which are necessary for non running periods as short as 2 weeks.

If someone tells you there is no difference between M/C oils and Auto/Diesel oils, they don't have a clue to what they are talking about.

Look at these tests http://bestoil4you.com/files/MC_Oil_Study.pdf and pick one of the Top 3 Finishers, I believe page 23, and you will be assured of having one of the Best oils available.

Oil, is the LifeBlood of your engine. The oil filter, is the Kidney that keeps it clean.

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Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

so where is the data comparing the motorcycle oils to the auto oils?

honestly yall i dont understand why yall gotta make this so complicated to a newbie simple way to solve what he should run in his bike is go to your local yamaha dealer and buy yamaha specific oil.... problem solved no need to make things complicated ... yamahalube is a oil make for our bikes period its all i have ever used in my bikes and i have never had an oil related issue

so where is the data comparing the motorcycle oils to the auto oils?

All over the place. Sportrider Magazine has ran an article twice showing that there is a difference.

Of course, heads up testing is rare as it is an Apple/Orange comparison. You have to look at the testing of each class to compare and look at the API Ratings for an auto oil to see if it meets Minimum Requirements.

Or, you coukld just use the proper oil for the Application.

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Bob

All over the place. Sportrider Magazine has ran an article twice showing that there is a difference.

Of course, heads up testing is rare as it is an Apple/Orange comparison. You have to look at the testing of each class to compare and look at the API Ratings for an auto oil to see if it meets Minimum Requirements.

Or, you coukld just use the proper oil for the Application.

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Bob

Rare? I have yet to see any real tests of motorcycle oils against non energy conserving auto oils..

And as far as the tests go, all that three ball, four ball, viscosity before and after, is all just a starting point in real world applications. The hard and fast is using empirical results. For many years I raced ATVs and dirtbikes, and had friends that road raced. The oils that did best in the tests did not always do best in actual use.

We had one road race bike that could not use Amsoil, it would lose too much oil over the course of the race, but was fine on Mobil 1.

Then we had one 2 stroke motocross bike the ran so well on Amsoil pre-mix that it went a whole season without a top end and all the other bikes, even if they ran other synthetics, needed at least two.

It all depends.. but bottom line, in non racing applications when changed at manufacturers interval, virtually any oil will be fine for the engine, just some of the energy conserving will not be so good for the clutch.

Personally I do extended oil change intervals, that is why I use premium synthetics, Mobil 1, Amsoil or Syntec.

Rare? I have yet to see any real tests of motorcycle oils against non energy conserving auto oils..


Personally I do extended oil change intervals, that is why I use premium synthetics, Mobil 1, Amsoil or Syntec.

Why would anyone spend Thousands of Dollars to test an auto oil against a M/C oil ?

If that is what you want, open your checkbook.. Somewhere around $30 Grand should get a relative battery of tests started.

Well let's see... You must be comparing auto oils... Only Mobil 1 auto oil that is PAO Based is the Extended Performance and it is only about 30%, SynTec is a Hydro-Cracked oil, No PAO or Esters...

I have several M/C Race Teams that use AMSOIL MCF. One is a Podium 3 bike team where with the previous Synthetic, they had to rebuild 2-3 times a year.. 2009 was first year with AMSOIL.. No Majors, No Freshen ups and over the Winter when the engine builder tore them down, he was so amazed that he signed up as a Dealer.

2010 is going well for them

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Bob

Why would anyone spend Thousands of Dollars to test an auto oil against a M/C oil ?

If that is what you want, open your checkbook.. Somewhere around $30 Grand should get a relative battery of tests started.



The tests are the same, all they would have to do is collate the data from existing tests and release it in a usable format.

The tests are the same, all they would have to do is collate the data from existing tests and release it in a usable format.

Only some of the tests are the same.

Motorcycle oils are tested for foaming, anti-corrosion, JASO for wet clutch etc....

Motorcycle oils usually have a higher TBN than auto oils. They have a higher ZDP content as Most auto oils are now are SJ, SL or SM rated and will not pass a JASO MA Rating.

Some M/C oils also have Specific additives anti-wear additives for the transmission.

It is not as simple as one thinks when looking at oils designed for a Specific application instead of a "Multi-Fit" Product.

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Bob

Only some of the tests are the same.

Motorcycle oils are tested for foaming, anti-corrosion, JASO for wet clutch etc....

Motorcycle oils usually have a higher TBN than auto oils. They have a higher ZDP content as Most auto oils are now are SJ, SL or SM rated and will not pass a JASO MA Rating.

Some M/C oils also have Specific additives anti-wear additives for the transmission.

It is not as simple as one thinks when looking at oils designed for a Specific application instead of a "Multi-Fit" Product.

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Bob

And it is not as complicated as you are trying to make it sound.
So just show me all the data from all the tests that are the same. I know Amsoil has paid out through the nose for hundreds of tests on all kinds of oils over the last 25 years. So where is the data?

And it is not as complicated as you are trying to make it sound.
So just show me all the data from all the tests that are the same. I know Amsoil has paid out through the nose for hundreds of tests on all kinds of oils over the last 25 years. So where is the data?

There is more to it than you think.

www.amsoil.com

right hand column "Oil Comparisons"

There is more to it than you think.

www.amsoil.com

right hand column "Oil Comparisons"

No there is not,, I got my master motorcycle mechanics license 20 years ago. I have seen all these white papers.

if you check, all the auto oils tested have better 4 ball wear numbers and TBN numbers than most of the motorcycle oils tested.

A lot of the tests are a "who cares" but they are added because the sponsor did well in them.

A few years back there was a test that compared auto oils to motorcycle oils in a magazine. Most of the auto oils did not do as well as motorcycle oils, but that was before the latest upgrade in oil technology. And even then Mobil 1 (non energy conserving) did as well as the motorcycle synthetics, and Castrol GTX about the same as the motorcycle dino oils.

Besides that is just a fact, that the recommended oil change interval by the manufacturer is conservative enough that you really cannot cause oil related engine problems with any oil if you follow them. The only real issue that can happen with auto energy conserving auto oils is burning a clutch. And I dragged raced 750 Street class using plain Pennzoil auto oil back in the 80s and only burnt one clutch ever.

I will agree that motorcycle oils are better. But I will not agree they are worth the extra price or really necessary.

Boy ! You guys sure geet heated up on this site. I expect the Amsoil dealer to praise his products and everyone is intitled to their opinion, but if oil is a problem here just use the Yamaha lube and be done with it! It's formulated for their bikes and if there oil is no good then they probably wouldn't be in business.
I am sure synthetic oil is probably better than regular dino oil, but if you change your oil and filter on a regular basis then there should never be a oil related problem! There are enough parts on these bikes to go bad and many have nothing to do with oil.
My bike is only three weeks old and I only have 550 miles on it. I just changed the oil and filter, which should be done by 600 miles. I will also change the oil way before the next scheduled required service. I don't expect to have a problem with anything oil related if I continue with that type of program.
My last bike had 3000 miles on it before I traded and I changed the oil and filter every 800 miles. I will probably do the same to my new bike. I do hope to keep this one longer than the last, but who knows.

No there is not,, I got my master motorcycle mechanics license 20 years ago. I have seen all these white papers.

if you check, all the auto oils tested have better 4 ball wear numbers and TBN numbers than most of the motorcycle oils tested.

A lot of the tests are a "who cares" but they are added because the sponsor did well in them.

A few years back there was a test that compared auto oils to motorcycle oils in a magazine. Most of the auto oils did not do as well as motorcycle oils, but that was before the latest upgrade in oil technology. And even then Mobil 1 (non energy conserving) did as well as the motorcycle synthetics, and Castrol GTX about the same as the motorcycle dino oils.

Besides that is just a fact, that the recommended oil change interval by the manufacturer is conservative enough that you really cannot cause oil related engine problems with any oil if you follow them. The only real issue that can happen with auto energy conserving auto oils is burning a clutch. And I dragged raced 750 Street class using plain Pennzoil auto oil back in the 80s and only burnt one clutch ever.

I will agree that motorcycle oils are better. But I will not agree they are worth the extra price or really necessary.

Congrats on your license.. I was a Certified Tech myself. Opened my first shop in 1972, sold it and opened 2 more, managed several others. Then I got smart. But I still get calls asking me to open a shop or partner in one like the call this morning. A plain and clear no was the answer.

Now that we have that out of the way..... They teach you squat about oil.

Almost Any oil you used more than 1-2 years ago has No Bearing on what you use today. There were no 'Motorcycle Specific' oils before the late 90's as there was no need for them.

Some auto oils may do better in the 4-Ball but there is this thing called 'Friction Modifiers' that can wreak havoc on a clutch which is why the OEM's set forth Specs such as.... An API SG oil. A higher API Rating may be used as long as it carries the JASO MA or MA 2 Rating. No higher than a CG for a Diesel oil.

You are referring to SportRider Magazine, most likely, and the publication date was in 2005 I believe. They recently ran the article again but changed it around a little for a freshness.. What I always liked about it "AMSOIL Performed As Stated". And at that time we didn't even have a "Motorcycle Specific" oil but outperformed everyone. Will wonders never cease...

The article also said that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE between Auto and Motorcycle oil. Motorcycle oil has a Higher ZDP Rating for one.

Auto oils do Not have additives for the clutch, Anti-Wear additives for the tranny and little to no Anti-Rust and corrosion Inhibitors.

As far as recommended change interval.. You are wrong... In most cases, the oil should be changed at 50% OEM recommended which would be the Severe Service Rating.

My Touring bike has an OEM Interval of 5000. When analysis was pulled at just over 3000, Another 'Synthetic' had sheared a full viscosity grade and was recommended to change.

With AMSOIL Motorcycle Specific, I ran analysis at just over 9000, the next was at just over 10,000 and the following was at 11,400 where although the oil was still serviceable and no elevated wear metals, it had gained a viscosity grade. Oil changes at 10,000 now.

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Bob

Now that we have that out of the way..... They teach you squat about oil.
No they didn't I had to learn it on my own, years of experience and study, which I started long before I got my license

Almost Any oil you used more than 1-2 years ago has No Bearing on what you use today. There were no 'Motorcycle Specific' oils before the late 90's as there was no need for them. Funny I was using motorcycle specific oils in my racing bikes back in the 80s.

Some auto oils may do better in the 4-Ball but there is this thing called 'Friction Modifiers'

No, not some, but all tested auto oils, I just looked it up right on the Amsoil link you provided!!!!


Auto oils do Not have additives for the clutch, Anti-Wear additives for the tranny and little to no Anti-Rust and corrosion Inhibitors.
Little to no anti-rust and corrosion inhibitors. Then why were the TBN numbers so much better in most auto oils.
"Lubricant alkalinity or base is one of the key factors which govern oil life in medium- and
high-speed engines. A crankcase lubricant possesses alkalinity, expressed as total base
number (TBN), in order to neutralize acids formed during normal engine operation. A
crankcase oil must maintain an adequate level of TBN during service to prevent the build up
of acids. Failure to control acid levels will lead to excessive engine deposits and, more
importantly, corrosive attack of engine components such as cylinder liners, piston rings, and
bearings. Hence, TBN is frequently monitored in automotive and locomotive applications in
order to signal when the lubricant base level falls below a minimum level and the oil needs to
be changed."


As far as recommended change interval.. You are wrong... In most cases, the oil should be changed at 50% OEM recommended which would be the Severe Service Rating.
then tell me why is it in Europe many vehicles have extended oil change intervals for the same engines using the synthetic oils when in the good ole sue happy US they still recommend dino oil intervals when using synthetics.

My Touring bike has an OEM Interval of 5000. When analysis was pulled at just over 3000, Another 'Synthetic' had sheared a full viscosity grade and was recommended to change.

With AMSOIL Motorcycle Specific, I ran analysis at just over 9000, the next was at just over 10,000 and the following was at 11,400 where although the oil was still serviceable and no elevated wear metals, it had gained a viscosity grade. Oil changes at 10,000 now.

What other "synthetic"
The difference in quality between PAOs and hydrocracked is minimal. When Amsoil starts using PAOs that are not derived from crude oil I'll be impressed.

A club I belonged to did oil analysis tests on both Amsoil and Mobil 1 and got virtually the same numbers on both.

Amsoil made it to 12k before really needing to be changed, but had to have over a quart added in that period.
Mobil 1 made to to 10.5K but only need a half quart added.

but if oil is a problem here just use the Yamaha lube and be done with it! It's formulated for their bikes and if there oil is no good then they probably wouldn't be in business.


Actually in Canada, Imperial Oil Co. (ESSO) manufactures the Yamalube brand on behalf of Yamaha Canada and in the US, a company called CITGO makes Yamalube on behalf of Yamaha USA.

Because some oils Citgo use to make are no longer available if you have a Yamaha over 5 years oil, the recommended Yamalube is often not even available anymore. Yamaha does not design the oil for their bikes, they just have it repackaged.

Avon, Raliegh, Cloverine, .......Amsoil, too bad you can't but it at a shop anywhere only through a huckster Hummm :rolleyes:

Controversial topic but I wouldn't run syn until after I did a hard-running break-in getting the rings dialed in with the new cylinders. But I'd certainly consider synthetic afterward.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
For what it's worth.. I kinda buy this philosophy.. Plus, as long as you're in the power-band, you're really not hurting a bike to run it good to get the rings compressed against the fresh cylinder walls for optimum seal.

Avon, Raliegh, Cloverine, .......Amsoil, too bad you can't but it at a shop anywhere only through a huckster Hummm :rolleyes:

Really ? So all the Motorcycle shops and Car/Truck Dealers I sell AMSOIL to, really don't sell it. They must just buy thousands of dollars worth every month to dump it and make me feel good.

It's called Direct Sales which has made AMSOIL the largest Synthetic oil Manufacturer. Why should they change marketing when this venue works so well ?

I think there is a little company called something like Amazon which would agree with me as well.

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Bob

Controversial topic but I wouldn't run syn until after I did a hard-running break-in getting the rings dialed in with the new cylinders. But I'd certainly consider synthetic afterward.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
For what it's worth.. I kinda buy this philosophy.. Plus, as long as you're in the power-band, you're really not hurting a bike to run it good to get the rings compressed against the fresh cylinder walls for optimum seal.

most engines break in is started at at the factory, so by the time first oil change is due you are fine.
Unless of course the vehicle came from the factory with synthetic, in which case a full break in was done before it left the factory.

Anti-Rust and Corrosion Inhibitors have nothing to do with TBN. Two different things.

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Bob

Really ? So all the Motorcycle shops and Car/Truck Dealers I sell AMSOIL to, really don't sell it. They must just buy thousands of dollars worth every month to dump it and make me feel good.

It's called Direct Sales which has made AMSOIL the largest Synthetic oil Manufacturer. Why should they change marketing when this venue works so well ?

I think there is a little company called something like Amazon which would agree with me as well.

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Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

Sir, when I looked all over all the retail outlets within miles of here, Amsoil was nowhere to be found, no shops had it either. It is touted by some to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, if so, why can I not go to any retail place and not find it along side Mobil, Shell, Lucas and on and on?? I was told by some of them the only way to buy Amsoil was to order it, maybe I was told wrong, I do not know. But as you say, buy it anytime with Amazon, duh!! That's what I was tryin to say, tell me why the shops( at least around here) don't carry it? Or any of the stores? I got nothin at all against a guy tryin to turn a buck, hell, it's the American way:) If I want a quart or case of oil, I go buy it, if Amsoil was so easly available, I would sure give it a honest try. Be calm, ride safe and have fun.

Anti-Rust and Corrosion Inhibitors have nothing to do with TBN. Two different things.

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Bob

So the other five points I made must have been valid?

but it is beside the point, you said automotive oils have little to no anti-rust and corrosion inhibitors, but in the aviation industry there are always discussions about using automotive oils because they have anti-rust additives and corrosion inhibitors and aviation oils do not. But apparently these aeronautic engineers don't know anything about oil either. But they don't use them because most airplane engines are air cooled and these inhibitors can actually become more corrosive at temps over 300 degrees. So if you are right and only motorcycle oils have extra anti corrosion additives, then they are inherently bad for air cooled bikes!!


but the fact is most automotive oils do have these additives. All Castrol oils have corrosion additives. This is not actually new tech, the anti corrosive additive ZDP has been being used in auto oils since the 40s.

Sir, when I looked all over all the retail outlets within miles of here, Amsoil was nowhere to be found, no shops had it either. It is touted by some to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, if so, why can I not go to any retail place and not find it along side Mobil, Shell, Lucas and on and on?? I was told by some of them the only way to buy Amsoil was to order it, maybe I was told wrong, I do not know. But as you say, buy it anytime with Amazon, duh!! That's what I was tryin to say, tell me why the shops( at least around here) don't carry it? Or any of the stores? I got nothin at all against a guy tryin to turn a buck, hell, it's the American way:) If I want a quart or case of oil, I go buy it, if Amsoil was so easly available, I would sure give it a honest try. Be calm, ride safe and have fun.

Now that was a much better way to phrase things...

I can set up any Retail location in the U.S. or Canada as long as they will abide by AMSOIL's policy and they fit AMSOIL's guidelines. Walmart approached AMSOIL and didn't want to abide by AMSOIL's policy of having to go through a Dealer so they were turned away. There is no way to buy from Corporate without going through a Dealer.

I can also sell it to you and have it dropped on your door for less than walking into one of those Retailers.

AMSOIL's business plan and Marketing may not fit everyone's like's, needs or desires but, it is what it is and, has made the company what it is today. Companies such as Donaldson, WIX, NGK, Mothers are also available from us.

Donaldson partnered with AMSOIL after a trial 6 month period. With just the sale of 1 item, the oil filter for a 5.9 Cummins, where AMSOIL Dealers sold more of that 1 filter in 6 months, than Donaldson sold in 2 years. It was obvious to them how well and powerful the AMSOIL marketing system is. AMSOIL is now the Only company to have the Patented Filter Media for Automotive, Light Truck and Motorcycles. Not even Donaldson can manufacture and sell to those markets.

I don't say the things I do about AMSOIL to sell it. I sell AMSOIL because of the things I can say about it and have Since 1984.

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Bob

So the other five points I made must have been valid?

but it is beside the point, you said automotive oils have little to no anti-rust and corrosion inhibitors, but in the aviation industry there are always discussions about using automotive oils because they have anti-rust additives and corrosion inhibitors and aviation oils do not. But apparently these aeronautic engineers don't know anything about oil either. But they don't use them because most airplane engines are air cooled and these inhibitors can actually become more corrosive at temps over 300 degrees. So if you are right and only motorcycle oils have extra anti corrosion additives, then they are inherently bad for air cooled bikes!!


but the fact is most automotive oils do have these additives. All Castrol oils have corrosion additives. This is not actually new tech, the anti corrosive additive ZDP has been being used in auto oils since the 40s.

You really need to go back and do some studying of the White Papers you have SUPPOSEDLY Studied... Maybe comprehension was the problem.

Right now, you are throwing out Terms with incorrect explanations or incomplete explanations to try and prove something.

Such as TBN for Anti-Rust and Corrosion, where it is an Acid Neutralization package. Rust and Corrosion is the amount of protection offered to bare metal such as cylinders and is tested in a Humidity cabinet.

ZDP is an Additive for wear against Extreme Pressure, mostly for Flat Tappet Cams and has been greatly reduced in automotive oils as most automotive engines have roller cams in them. This is another reason Motorcycle oils have a greater ZDP amount than auto oils. Many a Hot Rodder is using ZDP additives to help prevent flat cams. Visit an auto parts store and you will more than likely be able to pick up a bottle and Read.

As for your "Other 5 Points", I would have to read your whole post which I haven't and really don't need to.

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Bob

You really need to go back and do some studying
ZDP is an Additive for wear against Extreme Pressure, mostly for Flat Tappet Cams and has been greatly reduced in automotive oils as most automotive engines have roller cams in them.


Apparently you need to do some studying too, as the invent of roller tappets is not why the levels of ZDP were reduced in modern oils. And even though the levels have been reduced in the last 15 years, they are still at or above the levels that were needed originally to protect flat tappet cams!!!!

And most car have roller cams?? You are going to have to show me some proof of that. I own a 98, an 04 and a 08 cars and not one has rollers.

Apparently you need to do some studying too, as the invent of roller tappets is not why the levels of ZDP were reduced in modern oils. And even though the levels have been reduced in the last 15 years, they are still at or above the levels that were needed originally to protect flat tappet cams!!!!

And most car have roller cams?? You are going to have to show me some proof of that. I own a 98, an 04 and a 08 cars and not one has rollers.

ZDP is being reduced/removed from oils as it MAY contaminate catalytic converters and exhaust treatment devices.

A 98 car ? The dang thing is near antique status, it is 13 years old. Quit going back in time and come up with relevent material.

I said most cars. Some cars with bucket type followers do not need as much ZDP unless an aggressive cam and/or high spring rates are installed.

This is tiring. You have shown that you obviously know little about oil, it's qualities, benefits, draw backs or even simple terms and their meanings and are simply here to argue.

You picked up a few key words and terms somewhere but confuse what they actually mean with others and when you get caught, you move on to another and another.

Be safe and enjoy riding. I think we are done here.

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Bob

And even though the levels have been reduced in the last 15 years, they are still at or above the levels that were needed originally to protect flat tappet cams!!!!


I just caught this...

Are you sure about that ? I sell an aweful lot of oil to Street Rodders where they have wiped cams due to the Zinc levels.

Which is why you can go to most,.... read the word MOST, as I don't want you to mix it up with the word All, auto parts stores and pick up ZDP additive. Companies like Comp Cams, Crane and Crower are all fighting this problem.

The Best isn't cheap
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Bob

I just caught this...

Are you sure about that ? I sell an aweful lot of oil to Street Rodders where they have wiped cams due to the Zinc levels.

Which is why you can go to most,.... read the word MOST, as I don't want you to mix it up with the word All, auto parts stores and pick up ZDP additive. Companies like Comp Cams, Crane and Crower are all fighting this problem.

The Best isn't cheap
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Bob

The following is gleaned from a GM tech link and has been previously posted on the Cadillac owners.com forum.

"ZDP started out at 0.03% range and passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.
In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range. A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear,
In the 60s it was increased to about .20% and the ZDP stated attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.
In the 70s it was dropped back to .10% range but phosphorus is bad for catalyst so levels have been dropped back to around .08%."

So the ZDP levels now are at the same place they were in the 50s needed for flat-tappet valve trains.
So possibly the reason you have so many street rodders needing Amsoil is because they add too much ZDP with their additives which also causes cam problems.

And excuse me if I don't have all the terminology correct. I do not make my living as a mechanic, but motorcycles and engines have been a passion for me for almost 40 years. And I've been around racing since before I can remember.

Our Zinc levels in our M/C oils and High Performance oils are in the 1400 PPM range.

"And excuse me if I don't have all the terminology correct. I do not make my living as a mechanic, but motorcycles and engines have been a passion for me for almost 40 years. And I've been around racing since before I can remember."

Which I have been trying to say all along.. You have no training in lubrication but yet try to post your "expertise" using incorrect terminology and/or descriptions. Few mechanics, engine builders and especially mechanical engineers know anything about oil but attempt to convince people they do. It is far beyond what it was just a few short years ago. It is a Science where oils are built in a lab.

Even OEM's screw things up just by some engineer inherently using his "know how" and changing a gasket's composition, which in turn, really eff's the oil up.


The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

Our Zinc levels in our M/C oils and High Performance oils are in the 1400 PPM range.

"And excuse me if I don't have all the terminology correct. I do not make my living as a mechanic, but motorcycles and engines have been a passion for me for almost 40 years. And I've been around racing since before I can remember."

Which I have been trying to say all along.. You have no training in lubrication but yet try to post your "expertise" using incorrect terminology and/or descriptions. Few mechanics, engine builders and especially mechanical engineers know anything about oil but attempt to convince people they do. It is far beyond what it was just a few short years ago. It is a Science where oils are built in a lab.

Even OEM's screw things up just by some engineer inherently using his "know how" and changing a gasket's composition, which in turn, really eff's the oil up.


The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

And my expertise comes from 40 years of experience seeing what works and what doesn't, and from that empirical evidence it has become obvious that all the testing and engineering in the world, all the white papers, and lab tests are just a starting place for what happens in the real world. And the engineers always change the way they do things and correct their findings long after the real world results is out there. Race teams are usually the first to change, and even then it is usually the small independent teams trying to find an edge that do it first.

I used to use Amsoil ATV oil in my atvs but at 9 bucks a quart(back then), the cost was prohibitive with 4 atvs.

So I switched all my atvs, as well as my 06 Vstar 650 Classic to Shell Rotella synthetic and never looked back. I put the Shell oil in my Classic at 600 miles.

My Classic shifts smoother....no annoying clunks...with the Shell oil and it's JASO_MA rated now. Plus it's available at Walmart.

Hey DDrummen: Do you think the 5W-40 is ok for the bikes. Just asking because I am also thinking about going to the Rotilla T6 Synthetic. The only thing keeping me from switching is the 5W part of the 5W-40W of the oil. The bottle does say comparible to 10W-40W which is what I have been using. So far I have only used the Yamaha-lube but will be changing soon.

'09 Stratoliner-S, switched to Amsoil synthetic right after break-in. Did the same on my '02 RoadStar Warrior. Will do the same on the next bike (if there is a next one).

Here's another LUBE question - on the transfer case gear lube - is there any reason "not" to use GL-5 instead of GL-4 like the manual suggests? What say you Mr Amsoil Dealer Group?

Hey DDrummen: Do you think the 5W-40 is ok for the bikes. Just asking because I am also thinking about going to the Rotilla T6 Synthetic. The only thing keeping me from switching is the 5W part of the 5W-40W of the oil. The bottle does say comparible to 10W-40W which is what I have been using. So far I have only used the Yamaha-lube but will be changing soon.

I run it year round in my 650 so I really can't say about your 950. I do know that Yamaha oil, just like Honda oil, is bottled by another company and who ever gives them the best price gets the contract. At least that's what I'm told over at Bob's The Oil Guy forum. Those guys know their stuff.

I don't ride that much, roughly 1000 miles a year, and I change the oil on a yearly basis as a rule.

Where abouts do you live?

I live in Franklin which is just outside of Milwaukee. I just turned over 1000 miles on this new bike and have had it about 45 days.
I had a Majesty before that and had that one for about 2 years and put 3,000 on it. This bike feels much more solid than the scooter and I am sure I will be riding it more than the scooter. That being said, I don't see myself riding like some of these people on the forums. They use these bikes like cars and ride fo more than 5,000 plus per year.
The reason I want to switch to synthetic is the smoother shifting and even my local dealer said it takes alot of the drive train noise out of the bike. As far I understand Yamahalube is actually made by Citco oil. I am not sure, but they surely don't manufacture their own oil.
There seems to be many riders out there that are using the Rotilla T6 and are having good results. I read from two forums and I haven't heard any bad things being said about Rotilla T6. It is available everywhere unlike Amsoil and some of the others, which is why I want to try it. The price is also much better also. I have never gone more than 1,000 miles between oil changes anyway so I don't think I would ever have any oil related problems.

You sure won't have any oil related problems if you change the oil frequently.

I used to use Amsoil in my atvs and I would most likely use it if it was a little cheaper in price and I could buy it locally. But Rotella fits the bill for now.

We had some pretty hot temps down here this summer and my Star performed just fine during those hot months. Also, in my wife's 04 Yamaha 350 Bruin atv, the oil cooler fan comes on less with synthetic in the crankcase!

I have heard that the synthetic does keep the temp down better than dino oil. I changed my first oil at 400 miles and will wait till I have about 1200 before I put the synthetic oil in. We did have a hot summer up here as well, but I really don't think the 5W of the Rotilla T6 will affect anything. When it's colder, it should actually help the colder start. I don't like riding once it gets into the 40's anyway, so I guess I only have about a month or so before I park the bike. Then I will probably start to order new accessories for spring.

'09 Stratoliner-S, switched to Amsoil synthetic right after break-in. Did the same on my '02 RoadStar Warrior. Will do the same on the next bike (if there is a next one).

Here's another LUBE question - on the transfer case gear lube - is there any reason "not" to use GL-5 instead of GL-4 like the manual suggests? What say you Mr Amsoil Dealer Group?

As long as the GL-5 carries a GL-4 Spec as well. he rating is Not a supercession.T

A pure GL-4 should not be used in applications such as a differential though. It is stand alone rating used for trannies where there is Brass/Bronze or Copper.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

Hey DDrummen: Do you think the 5W-40 is ok for the bikes. Just asking because I am also thinking about going to the Rotilla T6 Synthetic. The only thing keeping me from switching is the 5W part of the 5W-40W of the oil. The bottle does say comparible to 10W-40W which is what I have been using. So far I have only used the Yamaha-lube but will be changing soon.

20W-40, 10W-40, 5W-40, 0W-40..... They are all 40 weight at operating temperature...

As long as the oil has an SG rating or a JASO MA or MA 2 Rating, you are fine.

Rotella meets Minimum Specs set forth by the OEM

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

You sure won't have any oil related problems if you change the oil frequently.

I used to use Amsoil in my atvs and I would most likely use it if it was a little cheaper in price and I could buy it locally. But Rotella fits the bill for now.

We had some pretty hot temps down here this summer and my Star performed just fine during those hot months. Also, in my wife's 04 Yamaha 350 Bruin atv, the oil cooler fan comes on less with synthetic in the crankcase!


You probably have not checked our prices. Put an appoximate order together and email us for a quote.

Using AMSOIL as recommended usually offsets the slightly higher initial cost.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

Have your prices come down from what they were 5 years ago?

As for Rotella meeting minimum specs.....maybe so but I do know that there are a lot of other bikers who swear by it....from V Stars to Goldwings.

I'm satisfied with the performance of Rotella synthetic in my bike and atvs so that's what I will use in the future.

Hey Bob:
I did send you a request for prices today, but I was just wondering why you couldn't just post the prices on this forum?
The only question would be what the price is on the 10W-40 and the 20W-50. That would probably cover 90% to the bikes on this forum.
Just a thought!

Hey Bob:
I did send you a request for prices today, but I was just wondering why you couldn't just post the prices on this forum?
The only question would be what the price is on the 10W-40 and the 20W-50. That would probably cover 90% to the bikes on this forum.
Just a thought!

Corporate Policy does not allow prices to be posted in Public. We are not even allowed to put prices on our website unless it is the linked corporate site which are Retail prices.

I am at a M/C Rally in North Carolina and this will be the last time I am online until sometime Sunday when I get home. I am going through emails right now.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

Really ? So all the Motorcycle shops and Car/Truck Dealers I sell AMSOIL to, really don't sell it. They must just buy thousands of dollars worth every month to dump it and make me feel good.

It's called Direct Sales which has made AMSOIL the largest Synthetic oil Manufacturer. Why should they change marketing when this venue works so well ?

I think there is a little company called something like Amazon which would agree with me as well.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

Wow, you are really passionate about your oil huh? I love my job too, but no reason to be so confrontational. I don't think I've ever seen a product rep so nasty on a forum like this. It's almost enough to make me switch oils to be honest.

Wow, you are really passionate about your oil huh? I love my job too, but no reason to be so confrontational. I don't think I've ever seen a product rep so nasty on a forum like this. It's almost enough to make me switch oils to be honest.

Sorry you feel that way.

I am what I am. Straightforward and Blunt.

I don't believe in "Candy Coating" things. If someone can't handle someone being upfront and honest with them, I am the wrong person to talk to.

I must be doing something right though as I am in the top 1% of the company and, you can't make everyone happy.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

Nice pissing contest - now back to the original post & question:

When I sell a new Yamaha (it's what I do for a living) I always answer the break in questions with this:
'Your new bike has mineral oil in it along with a metal protectant called Cosmoline. The cosmoline is to protect the engine and fuel system components during transport & storage. It makes a pretty good protectant & a mediocre lubricant. There isn't much in there since a little goes a long way, so you can safely leave it in there until you're ready for your first oil change. It'll wash down into the break in oil & filter and come out with your first oil change. The mineral oil in your new engine is used to allow a controlled amount of wear that essentially polishes mating surfaces together and allows moving parts to seat properly. Once the break in period is complete, you should change both your oil & filter. If you want to put synthetic in the engine, as long as the break in period is complete - by all means go for it. Just be sure to use a good brand name oil in your engine, it's pretty cheap insurance for your investment. I recommend a motorcycle-specific oil because there is no guess work involved about compatibility. MC specific oil WILL work, others MIGHT work, but it's your engine so the choice is ultimately yours to make.'

Next question is almost always 'how do I know...' or 'how many miles...'.
My answer is something like this:
'Break-in mileage is a ballpark figure that is an average determined by the manufacturer. It's reasonably accurate but every engine will be a little different and how you ride the bike including weather, temperature, heat cycles and revving will affect how soon your engine will break in. Personally - I always watch my gas mileage in new engines for signs that it's broken in. You'll notice your first tank of gas goes really fast, that's perfectly normal due to the friction of all those newly machined parts rubbing against each other. With each tank of gas you'll notice your gas mileage increasing a little, again - perfectly normal. Keep a mileage log so you know exactly what's going on during your break in period. Once you see your gas mileage level off, chances are your engine is broken in (or close to it) from the polishing of internals. After a couple or 3 tanks of gas with no noticeable change in mileage, change your oil & filter if you already haven't & use whatever type of oil you prefer. If you want to go synthetic, now is as good a time as any.'

I tell people that because it's what I've been doing on literally hundreds of engines in the last 35 or so years I've been playing with them. Only one that ever blew on my was a 1972 BMW 2002 that I put about 150K on it after I rebuilt it & it had 250K on it when I rebuilt it so I have no complaints about that one. :cool:

I've had other graybeards tell me they first change oil at 50 or 100 miles & again whenever the manufacturer say break in is supposedly done. I might do that if I can actually see & feel grit in a new engine, but I haven't ever really seen anything like that so I don't go that far.

Advice given freely with full refunds at the door (with your validated receipt, of course). :D

Cheers

P.S., I use Amsoil in my Roadstar because we carry it and our dealer cost at work is a little lower than Yamalube for the same weight in full-synthetic. Is it the "best oil"? I don't know, but I get good mileage with it and I've noticed no wear in the engine so ... so far, so good. I also change the filter every oil change because it's only $5 friggin' dollars. Much cheaper than a new engine. LOL