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Old 05-24-2010, 11:55 AM   #1
V-Starter
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Default Starter Clutch Problem??

I have an '02 V-Star Silverado. I started experiencing occasional bouts of being unable to successfully start the bike. The "cranking effort" would go on and on. Sometimes , if I left it alone a while it would start right up. Other times I would wear the battery down, listening to the starter whine. Got progressively worse, until now wont start.

I'm told it is the starter clutch (one-way clutch)

Is this a common problem with the V-Star?

Thanks for any help
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:40 PM   #2
linerdave
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v Starter,

I'm not clear, is the starter cranking the engine over but it does not start? Or, is the starter turning without cranking the engine over?

If the engine is turning over I would look more at ignition or fuel. If only the starter is turning then the starter clutch could be the problem.

Read this.
http://www.sloneservices.com/SilverB...08.htm#Starter

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Old 06-21-2010, 06:01 PM   #3
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Sounds like your starter sprag clutch is shagged dude. Very common problem with the 1100's from 99 to 2002.

Like you I got stung by this, mine's a 2002 too. Apparently they sorted the problem with the 2003 model onward. I'd always wondered why spares websites listed the XVS 1100 as 99-02 and 03-10 models.... that's the difference.
The way they sorted it was by replacing the starter motor with an "updated" version which has a "torque limiting clutch" which allows the engine kickback on shutdown. Before, when the engine shuts down, depending on where the pistons are at that moment, the crank could rotate backwards a few degrees before it finally comes to a complete stop. This causes the starter motor to be turned by the engine, causing twisted starter motor bolts you may read about on tinterwebnetz.
The reason is, the starter clutch (sprag clutch) can only turn in one direction and lock up in the other direction. So when your starter turns the sprags in the starter clutch catch the crank and turns it, and engine then starts.
When the engine starts, the crank turns faster than the starter motor and this is allowed for by the starter clutch.
It's kinda hard to get it pictured in your head.

But anyway, the thing is the engine kickback on shutdown turns the starter sprag clutch in the direction it doesn't go. So this unwanted torque is manifested in 2 ways - a) your starter motor gets twisted, b) starter clutch sprags get worn from this shearing torque turning it the way its not supposed to go. Eventually the sprags can't grip the crank anymore and BOOOYA your starter turns but your engine doesn't.

Do you remember a kind of short and sharp clutch grinding noise when you shutdown the engine? I have a video of mine doing it. I should post it...
That's the sound of your sprag clutch being worn down.

Mine began by making a whacking noise on startup, turns out it was the worn sprags engaging suddenly when the motor was turning full speed, as opposed to engaging when the motor begins to turn.
But I had the clutch grind/scrape noise on shutdown since day 1 (bought the bike last November with 3k miles on it, 12k on it now )

So anyway Yamaha's new updated starter motor is in fact very very similar to the old one. The old one has the same torque limiting clutch in it, just it has a higher torque setting - so the new motor gives way to the kickback (lower torque setting) where the old one would hold tight and hence get twisted starter bolts on the starter housing.
I've opened up both the old and new starter motors and took pics, I really should post them too.

So in the end I replaced the starter motor, as if you replace the starter clutch on it's own, it will get worn down again due to the engine kickback not being allowed for by the starter motor.
So you need the new motor to take this punishment so the starter clutch doesn't have to. Look for part number 5EL8189001 on ebay (make sure it's not 5EL8189000, that's the old one), cheapest you'll get it. They know you need it so they charge you an arm & a leg.

You'll have to replace the starter clutch too - part number 5EL1559000. Cheapest place I found it was here.

As for the starter idler gear part number 5EL1551711, I didn't bother getting a new one of these (more expense) but the surface of mine was scored by the sprags scraping it. So I put mine in a lathe and polished it off.
Check out the zoomable PDF here for a picture of the parts I'm talking about.


One thing you can do in the mean time, I found from experimenting with my own, is put your bike in 2nd gear, let the clutch out and roll the bike backwards (engine off of course) before starting. This motion engages the sprags in the sprag (starter) clutch. So doing it in advance like this should help it to "catch" the motor crank and turn it to get it started.

So yes, you have been officially stung.
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:53 PM   #4
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Hey Flush,

Thanks for the detailed writeup. I'm new here and am having very similar issues to what you have described here. I have a 2000 1100 with 21k miles. It has been very well kept with good maintenance. I find the bike hard to start. I would say the starter engages and spins the motor but sometimes cuts out with a clunk when starting. The engine also often shuts off with a clunk. I have checked the starter casing bolts and they appear not to be bent. The previous owner told me he replaced the starter not long ago. Would you mind to post the pictures and sound file you talked about please?

Thanks again for your very informative post. I look forward to your reply!
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Old 07-20-2010, 02:39 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoWhiskey View Post
Hey Flush,

Thanks for the detailed writeup. I'm new here and am having very similar issues to what you have described here. I have a 2000 1100 with 21k miles. It has been very well kept with good maintenance. I find the bike hard to start. I would say the starter engages and spins the motor but sometimes cuts out with a clunk when starting. The engine also often shuts off with a clunk. I have checked the starter casing bolts and they appear not to be bent. The previous owner told me he replaced the starter not long ago. Would you mind to post the pictures and sound file you talked about please?

Thanks again for your very informative post. I look forward to your reply!
Sorry for your troubles dude.

[YOUTUBE]
[/YOUTUBE]

This is a good example of the clutch grind sound on shutdown I get about 50% of the time I shutdown.

I'd expect to have your problem even if the starter was replaced, as replacing the starter only helps to minimize the chance of the problem reoccurring, IF you replaced the starter clutch assembly too.

I replaced my starter too but not the starter clutch assembly, and the grinding continued.......... so did the whack on startup.

So then I replaced the starter clutch too.... and STILL got the grinding..... but at least the painful sounding whack on startup stopped, as I had anticipated.


So I guess the same thing is happening you;

> the engine kicks back on shutdown, turning the one-way starter clutch in the direction it is supposed to lock up in
> the starter motor gets twisted in absorbing the kickback and/or the starter clutch grinds (you & me didn't get the twisted starter, we got the grind, meaning the starter clutch gave up before the starter motor did)
> the starter clutch sprags are now worn, meaning the clutch slips and gives this grind noise on shutdown
> but the starter motor is fine, as the clutch is now absorbing the kickback and not the starter motor
> after such mileage as 21k the clutch is very worn and is slipping more and more, making it harder to start

Other things you should check if starting is hard is spark plugs etc. For what it's worth, during the winter etc i always had to start the bike twice when it was cold - even with the choke wide open... I'd hit the starter with choke open, bike kicks to life instantly, but dies a few seconds later as the choke on the 1100 seems to take a few secs to kick in so then I hit the starter again and this time it stays going.



I'll upload a few pics of the starters here (old one is dirty, new one is clean), no difference really, but the new one's spindle appeared to turn by hand with very slightly less force than the old one... meaning it's torque slip clutch setting was slightly lower. Wanted to verify this with a torque wrench but no socket (imperial or metric) would fit the cog on the end of the spindle.


So it looks like you'll have to replace your starter clutch, but this will only get rid of the start-up noise... maybe you'll get lucky and it will get rid of both noises
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Old 07-20-2010, 02:56 PM   #6
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I have read elsewhere on this forum as well as several other places that both clunks (startup and shutdown) could be caused by an out of adjustment TPS. I don't have the right Torx bit to loosen mine (want to get other bolts anyway) and check to see if it is within the recommendations. Have you happened to check your TPS? Set your idle speed to 1000 RPM and then check resistance on the TPS for closed and wide open throttle?
Adjustment link:http://www.sloneservices.com/SilverB...est-Adjust.pdf

TPS connector location: http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/i...rundertank.jpg
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Old 07-20-2010, 05:10 PM   #7
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Yep I've checked the TPS a few times, never out of spec. So in my case at least it has nothing to do with the clunk. I fail to see through what mechanism the TPS could cause this problem, it governs the ignition timing.

Here's the TPS check I did the other day (extract from maintenance log)

10 july 2010 - 13040 miles
Throttle position sensor checked, gives 5.05 k ohms with + on blue and - on black (range 4-6k ohms), and then 0.79 k ohms between + yellow and -
black with throttle closed (spec 0.56 - 0.84 k ohms) and then 3.89 with throttle wide open (spec 3.01 to 4.51 k ohms).



You don't need to take off the Torx screws to check the sensor is within spec - you only need to take of the screws to adjust the TPS if it is outside spec.
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:01 PM   #8
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I think if the TPS is out of adjustment, the ignition timing is not advanced / retarded properly causing the issue. I haven't had the opportunity to check mine out yet. The reason I mentioned the Torx bolts was because I wanted to replace them with allen heads. It also appears that improper starting procedure causes this also. See the information here: http://www.sloneservices.com/SilverB...100-FAQ-08.htm

I am going to check my TPS before getting into a starter clutch. A defective starter clutch certainly makes sense to me when starting the bike. The clutch being worn doesn't allow the starter to engage the motor properly, or at all in some cases. Causing a free spinning starter, or possibly a kickback (which I have experienced) My starter always engages the motor, but stops with a clunk sometimes. I'm not sure about the clunk when shutting down. Doesn't make sense to me how a worn starter clutch could cause a clunk on shutdown, but I may not be seeing the whole picture. Maybe the starter clutch is not made well from the beginning. I just want to get whatever is causing the issue fixed so I can get back to riding without feeling like something isn't quite right with my bike. Thanks for all the information, videos and pictures. By the way, my bike sounds just like your video!
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:42 PM   #9
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To know for sure I'd have to see the bike being shutdown with the left crankcase cover off, but from all my investigations that's the only conclusion I can come to - the engine kickback causes the clutch grind noise by turning the starter clutch in the direction it is not supposed to go.
Engine turns the crank in only one direction - this is the same direction as the starter motor turns the crank - but to stop the engine turning the starter motor once it has began running, this is why a starter clutch turns in one direction only and locks up in the other direction.
If you turn a sprag clutch in the "lock up" direction with enough force it will of course slip and make some sort of clutch grinding noise.
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:57 PM   #10
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I have a 2002 Vstar 1100 classic. I had 2 starter clutches replaced. First one was either installed incorrectly or it was a defect, the second had to be reinstalled since it was done incorrectly. Both were covered by the stealership.
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