The story about a man, named Jed, or critical oil brands... - Star Motorcycle Forums: Star Raider, V-Max, V-Star, Road-Star Forum
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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The story about a man, named Jed, or critical oil brands...

..."while shootin' at some food...up from the ground came a bubblin' crude..."....

Oil that is...Texas Tea, Black Gold!....

...or...

being that the SVTC uses non roller bearing hydralic lifters, but with a flat bottom...your choice of a MOTORCYCLE (no more the days of Shell Rotella T!) oil is critical to maintain lubricity between the cam lobe, and the follower flat face of the H.L.

I have locked down my list to only one of three:

YamaLube Full Synthetic (with Ester) 15W50 (which is in the bike since the 600 mile inspection)

Redline 10W40/20W50 with Ester

Royal Purple Max-Cycle 10W40/20W50.

That's my short list...personally not wavering from it. Now..at each oil change, I will buy the lowest cost one of the above three....whatever might be on sale, or promotion. You need high zinc/phosphorous and Cat 5 Esters to keep a premium oil film between the SVTC cam lobe, and the H.L. flat bottom. If you do that...you're probably good for hundreds of thousands of miles. As far as I see, that is the single most critical contact point for the SVTC... I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest, if for the 2019 model year, they 'sneak in' roller-bearing H.L's into the 2019 113 c.i. 'er.... I wouldn't even bat an eye...lol. Of course, if they do, all an owner of a 2018 would have to do, is order two...and swap out the flat bottoms for the roller-bearing ones....easy as pie...and totally accessible for the home mechanic. Right there...on the right side...

Mix three beers, two roller bearing H. L.'s , two gasket sets, one radio blasting out music, assorted required tools, mix and stir gently....re-torque, and pour one last celebration beer. Sip quietly and smile....

or...perhaps Yamaha will 're-call' all 2018's just to cover their butts, and you only need to buy a six pack of beer. Probably that's what would happen if they do go to roller 'coaster's for 2019!

My take, anyway...
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Last edited by YamahaParExcellence; 09-05-2018 at 03:52 PM.
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by YamahaParExcellence View Post
..."while shootin' at some food...up from the ground came a bubblin' crude..."....

Oil that is...Texas Tea, Black Gold!....

...or...

being that the SVTC uses non roller bearing hydralic lifters, but with a flat bottom...your choice of a MOTORCYCLE (no more the days of Shell Rotella T!) oil is critical to maintain lubricity between the cam lobe, and the follower flat face of the H.L.

I have locked down my list to only one of three:

YamaLube Full Synthetic (with Ester) 15W50 (which is in the bike since the 600 mile inspection)

Redline 10W40/20W50 with Ester

Royal Purple Max-Cycle 10W40/20W50.

That's my short list...personally not wavering from it. Now..at each oil change, I will buy the lowest cost one of the above three....whatever might be on sale, or promotion. You need high zinc/phosphorous and Cat 5 Esters to keep a premium oil film between the SVTC cam lobe, and the H.L. flat bottom. If you do that...you're probably good for hundreds of thousands of miles. As far as I see, that is the single most critical contact point for the SVTC... I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest, if for the 2019 model year, they 'sneak in' roller-bearing H.L's into the 2019 113 c.i. 'er.... I wouldn't even bat an eye...lol. Of course, if they do, all an owner of a 2018 would have to do, is order two...and swap out the flat bottoms for the roller-bearing ones....easy as pie...and totally accessible for the home mechanic. Right there...on the right side... [IMG class=inlineimg]/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Mix three beers, two roller bearing H. L.'s , two gasket sets, one radio blasting out music, assorted required tools, mix and stir gently....re-torque, and pour one last celebration beer. Sip quietly and smile....

or...perhaps Yamaha will 're-call' all 2018's just to cover their butts, and you only need to buy a six pack of beer. Probably that's what would happen if they do go to roller 'coaster's for 2019!

My take, anyway...
While the oil selection is a DONE DEAL, one can only hope regarding the lifters. 🙏🙏👍
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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While the oil selection is a DONE DEAL, one can only hope regarding the lifters. 🙏🙏👍
Naturally, what happened to you, and probably one other legitimate chap...bothered me. So...I did hours of reading...V-8's with solid lifters...high performance this and that. What I gleaned from it all, is that if you have a high zinc MOTORCYCLE oil, preferably Synthetic stock base (molecular conformity), then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. I think Chief, that if you had only had either the (came with) stock mineral YamaLube 10W40, or their 15W50, you would not have seen this come up with your bike. I now firmly believe that it was NEVER the result of the original 500 being rebuilt, and no pre-lube properly installed.

With personal research, it is strictly that this bike, with cam pushing up on a H.L ,that is then activating two huge valves----> with heavy duty actuation springs...that if the Zinc/Phos is not a high volume count, the mating of these two parts WILL fail...not 'if'...only 'when'.

I only had YamaLube (as installed) 10W40 mineral for the break in, and then had my dealership install the Full Synth YamaLube 15W50. To this date, my bike is very quiet other than the muffler thrum. I probably dogged your 'bullet'. Did lots more reading, as the Yama Mamma is the most non-competitive in price....no sales...strictly MSRP. So...my research 'short' list' relieves that. They (Yamaha Corp) have been watching this...and if I were the head of Engineering, and installing roller type H.L's ended what oil the owner might install, as a hinge point on whether there will be H.L. obliteration,...I'd see that done. There might be a recall on ours. I can't see them installing rollers (if in fact they do...) on the 2019's, and leaving us out to flap in the wind. That would really be bad press...for believe me, I'd be vocal about it...orally, as well as the written word... I don't think that would happen. Let's see what comes up for 2019...

But one thing is for sure...and not open to conjecture, is that you need a premium, high quality high count zinc/phosphorous additive oil...and that's a given for this engine! My 'short list' takes care of that requirement!
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Last edited by YamahaParExcellence; 09-05-2018 at 04:29 PM.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YamahaParExcellence View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefGunner View Post
While the oil selection is a DONE DEAL, one can only hope regarding the lifters. 🙏🙏👍
Naturally, what happened to you, and probably one other legitimate chap...bothered me. So...I did hours of reading...V-8's with solid lifters...high performance this and that. What I gleaned from it all, is that if you have a high zinc MOTORCYCLE oil, preferably Synthetic stock base (molecular conformity), then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. I think Chief, that if you had only had either the (came with) stock mineral YamaLube 10W40, or their 15W50, you would not have seen this come up with your bike. I now firmly believe that it was NEVER the result of the original 500 being rebuilt, and no pre-lube properly installed.

With personal research, it is strictly that this bike, with cam pushing up on a H.L ,that is then activating two huge valves----> with heavy duty actuation springs...that if the Zinc/Phos is not a high volume count, the mating of these two parts WILL fail...not 'if'...only 'when'.

I only had YamaLube (as installed) 10W40 mineral for the break in, and then had my dealership install the Full Synth YamaLube 15W50. To this date, my bike is very quiet other than the muffler thrum. I probably dogged your 'bullet'. Did lots more reading, as the Yama Mamma is the most non-competitive in price....no sales...strictly MSRP. So...my research 'short' list' relieves that. They (Yamaha Corp) have been watching this...and if I were the head of Engineering, and installing roller type H.L's ended what oil the owner might install, as a hinge point on whether there will be H.L. obliteration,...I'd see that done. There might be a recall on ours. I can't see them installing rollers (if in fact they do...) on the 2019's, and leaving us out to flap in the wind. That would really be bad press...for believe me, I'd be vocal about it...orally, as well as the written word... I don't think that would happen. Let's see what comes up for 2019...

But one thing is for sure...and not open to conjecture, is that you need a premium, high quality high count zinc/phosphorous additive oil...and that's a given for this engine! My 'short list' takes care of that requirement!
As a matter of fact Joe, I WAS using YamaLube 10w-40 WHEN the issue occurred! I was getting ready to go with 15w-50 full synthetic but it happened before I could.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by YamahaParExcellence View Post
.... being that the SVTC uses non roller bearing hydralic lifters, but with a flat bottom...your choice of a MOTORCYCLE (no more the days of Shell Rotella T!) oil is critical to maintain lubricity between the cam lobe, and the follower flat face of the H.L...
Is that truly a legitimate concern? Have there been failures? I'm seriously asking out of curiosity since I don't keep up with SVTC reviews/concerns. I have a lot of experience with 80's era Kawasaki and Suzuki fours with dual overhead cams and the cam faces acted directly on plain flat-faced buckets (shim-over and shim-under) with just a film of plain old automotive dino-oil running interference. These motors lived at 6K-7K rpms at legal highway speeds and could easily last 100K miles just as long as the owner wasn't a complete putz and maintained the bike yet there were never any issues with galling, pitting or seizure on either the cam lobe or bucket. Fellow road racers who ran high lift cams and heavy valve springs on these fours didn't have issues. Surely Yamaha didn't design a valve train with an Achilles heel for their flagship tourer that needed a special oil formulation in order to not fail.

**UPDATE**
Actually I failed to recognize a few things... that every OHC motor I'm familiar with that employs rockers has just a plain faced rocker end contacting a cam lobe and that has seemed to work perfectly well also. The old pushrod BMWs, Triumphs and Moto Guzzis also didn't have roller lifters yet they worked reliably... the BMWs and Moto Guzzis having earned the reputation of being extremely reliable motors.

Last edited by Diogenes415; 09-05-2018 at 08:55 PM.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YamahaParExcellence View Post
..."while shootin' at some food...up from the ground came a bubblin' crude..."....

Oil that is...Texas Tea, Black Gold!....

...or...

being that the SVTC uses non roller bearing hydralic lifters, but with a flat bottom...your choice of a MOTORCYCLE (no more the days of Shell Rotella T!) oil is critical to maintain lubricity between the cam lobe, and the follower flat face of the H.L.

I have locked down my list to only one of three:

YamaLube Full Synthetic (with Ester) 15W50 (which is in the bike since the 600 mile inspection)

Redline 10W40/20W50 with Ester

Royal Purple Max-Cycle 10W40/20W50.

That's my short list...personally not wavering from it. Now..at each oil change, I will buy the lowest cost one of the above three....whatever might be on sale, or promotion. You need high zinc/phosphorous and Cat 5 Esters to keep a premium oil film between the SVTC cam lobe, and the H.L. flat bottom. If you do that...you're probably good for hundreds of thousands of miles. As far as I see, that is the single most critical contact point for the SVTC... I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest, if for the 2019 model year, they 'sneak in' roller-bearing H.L's into the 2019 113 c.i. 'er.... I wouldn't even bat an eye...lol. Of course, if they do, all an owner of a 2018 would have to do, is order two...and swap out the flat bottoms for the roller-bearing ones....easy as pie...and totally accessible for the home mechanic. Right there...on the right side...

Mix three beers, two roller bearing H. L.'s , two gasket sets, one radio blasting out music, assorted required tools, mix and stir gently....re-torque, and pour one last celebration beer. Sip quietly and smile....

or...perhaps Yamaha will 're-call' all 2018's just to cover their butts, and you only need to buy a six pack of beer. Probably that's what would happen if they do go to roller 'coaster's for 2019!

My take, anyway...
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamahaParExcellence View Post
Naturally, what happened to you, and probably one other legitimate chap...bothered me. So...I did hours of reading...V-8's with solid lifters...high performance this and that. What I gleaned from it all, is that if you have a high zinc MOTORCYCLE oil, preferably Synthetic stock base (molecular conformity), then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. I think Chief, that if you had only had either the (came with) stock mineral YamaLube 10W40, or their 15W50, you would not have seen this come up with your bike. I now firmly believe that it was NEVER the result of the original 500 being rebuilt, and no pre-lube properly installed.

With personal research, it is strictly that this bike, with cam pushing up on a H.L ,that is then activating two huge valves----> with heavy duty actuation springs...that if the Zinc/Phos is not a high volume count, the mating of these two parts WILL fail...not 'if'...only 'when'.

I only had YamaLube (as installed) 10W40 mineral for the break in, and then had my dealership install the Full Synth YamaLube 15W50. To this date, my bike is very quiet other than the muffler thrum. I probably dogged your 'bullet'. Did lots more reading, as the Yama Mamma is the most non-competitive in price....no sales...strictly MSRP. So...my research 'short' list' relieves that. They (Yamaha Corp) have been watching this...and if I were the head of Engineering, and installing roller type H.L's ended what oil the owner might install, as a hinge point on whether there will be H.L. obliteration,...I'd see that done. There might be a recall on ours. I can't see them installing rollers (if in fact they do...) on the 2019's, and leaving us out to flap in the wind. That would really be bad press...for believe me, I'd be vocal about it...orally, as well as the written word... I don't think that would happen. Let's see what comes up for 2019...

But one thing is for sure...and not open to conjecture, is that you need a premium, high quality high count zinc/phosphorous additive oil...and that's a given for this engine! My 'short list' takes care of that requirement!
Now I see why you are called YamahaParExcellence!! Sir,, YOU are a genius for noticing that and putting it all together like that!! It certainly makes good, logical sense to my non-engineering brain that what you are saying is SPOT ON!! You should apply for a job with Star Motorcycles as it certainly sounds like this simple move would/could add hundreds if not thousands of miles to the valve train on the SVTC's amazing 113 inch motor!!!!! My hats off to you for your idea!!!
One quick question Sir,,, if each cylinder has 2 push rods being driven by 2 lifters wouldn't that total 4 roller lifters needed?? Or am I totally missing something here
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 09:15 PM
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I totally disagree. If convenience store oil met the specs (JASO MA). Yamaha has to honor their warranty. Pushrods are old tech, Yamaha should be able to design them so they don't get eaten by the cam.

Rob - 18 Raspberry SVTC, 08 Pearl White Navi Goldwing
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 04:45 AM Thread Starter
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I totally disagree. If convenience store oil met the specs (JASO MA). Yamaha has to honor their warranty. Pushrods are old tech, Yamaha should be able to design them so they don't get eaten by the cam.
Warranty or not, I'll pass on my ride sitting potentially for 6 weeks or more, 'while it gets warrantied' by Yamaha.... You pays your money, and you takes your chances. Law of the Jungle...
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 04:55 AM Thread Starter
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Riding season '19 lubricity taken care of...

This video decided for the '19 riding season, what lubricity bullets my gun is loaded with...





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Royal Purple Max-Cycle 20W50, and with this oil taking the twin jugs of the test bike down an unbelievable 11 degrees in heat...sold me on this brand and formula for some lubricity-lovin' inside Charlotte for the next riding season!!!

For you Canadian Folks, right now...Canadian Tire has the above brand and viscosity, or their Max Cycle 10W40 at 20 percent off, for at least the rest of this week. If you want to get this premium oil at U.S. prices...jump on this....

So I did...and bought 14 liters of Royal Purple Max-Cycle @ $14.99 per liter.

I'm all stocked up...and good to go....and most likely also, with 11 degrees cooler running. That...is so very------->cool! (if you excuse the pun...)

Joe

Last edited by YamahaParExcellence; 09-06-2018 at 06:41 AM.
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 05:25 AM Thread Starter
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As a matter of fact Joe, I WAS using YamaLube 10w-40 WHEN the issue occurred! I was getting ready to go with 15w-50 full synthetic but it happened before I could.
Ok...wow, and noted! Then, something else was happening for sure...but honestly Tony...I can't see the techs that were (if they did..) breaching these engines, and then rebuilding them. Even in their videos of an STVC/Eluder engine being line-built...each step of the way, the components are being painted by the tech with pre-lube. If they had to rebuild the motor, of course they would have to re-apply pre-lube in any area that any other SVTC engine coming down the line would require. These folks on the line, are not dorks....and they have the pre-lube right there at their build station. Something else was in play...perhaps a sub-par run of parts supplier H.L.'s that did not meet spec. THAT would make more sense to me, than lacking pre-lube on the second build. If that is so...there WILL be others....so my money is on a good premium high zinc/phor with added Cat 5 Ester. I want to ride my bike...and not the dealer having it sitting around...

Of my three 'short list' brands, it just happened that our Canadian Tire Store in Ontario, had the Royal Purple Max-Cycle on for $14.99 (20 percent off) this week, so I grabbed 14 of them. I'm now good to go, for the entire '19 riding season. No worries...no shop time...just ride...tour...tour...ride...

In Ontario, YamaLube 15W50 is around $22.50 per liter....so I saved nearly $60.00 in grabbing the 'Purple' Texas Tea... LOL!

That's almost an entire oil change in itself!

Joe
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