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  • YamahaParExcellence ·
    Tony...the '19 is revealed...so thank gawd, lol...we aren't one-year-wonders...lol. But...having said that....I do not like the look of the front end of the fairing. The LED eyebrows don't work for me...and if that Plexiglas panel takes a hit from stones...you will have to replace it immediately, for if not, that light indent behind the panel, will take on water, dirt, etc....I like our Barracuda 'round' and small target head lights much better. But...two things...we aren't orphans...and I think that those that love the '60's 70's classic look of the '18, will decided to go for our bikes, in resale, rather than the '19 look. There are going to be many that like what they did for '19...but also, many that will not....and that is our re-sale/trade in Ace in the hand...
    American ·
    Just wanted to point out the JASO standard and why some oils are no longer showing the MA certification on their packaging. Redline does not state they are JASO certified but they do state their oil works with the JASO MA standard. They can't be certified solely because of the Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDDP) counts are above the current standards of 800 PPM to 1,000 PPM, a standard that is not compatible with flat tappet engine designs.

    That does not mean every flat tappet engine will suffer failure, but history has proven there will be many flat tappet engines that do fail, the question is will yours be one of them if you run the new oils with reduced levels of Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDDP), that question was already answered once on your engine and it looks like two others. I am sticking with Redline and higher Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDDP) in my engine.
    American ·
    I ran the Yamalube 15w-50 for 1,342 miles and then changed it because I just did not like the way the engine/primary/transmission was responding with it. I installed Redline 10w-40 motorcycle oil in the engine at that point and ran it up to the 8,000 mile service and changed it again with Redline 10w-40.

    My engine has only ran Yamalube oils for a total of 2,342 miles while I have run Redline synthetic oils for a total of 6,478 miles almost three times the distance of the Yamalube oils. I currently have 8,820 miles on the motorcycle. Outside of the first 1,000 miles I know my engine has had Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDDP) lever above 1,500 PPM, I don't know what the ZDDP count is in Yamalube 10w-40 conventional oil.
    American ·
    Here is the difference with your engine and mine in regards to oil, you used Yamalube 10w-40 conventional oil up to your 8,000 mile service and you suffered cam/lifter failure.

    I used Yamalube 10w-40 conventional oil for the first 600 miles then it was put in again by the dealer and I ran it until the 1,000 mile mark before I changed to Redline 20w-50, the Redline 20w-50 performed better than did the Yamalube 10w-40 and was in the engine for 3,000 miles until the 4,000 mile service where Yamalube 15w-50 full synthetic was supposed to be put in.
    American ·
    In order for these companies to print the JASO MA certification on their bottles or to say they are JASO certified they have to comply with the reduced Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDDP) levels of the current standard. Nothing has really changed with the oils as far as their MA, MA1 or MA2 ratings are concerned other than they can't use that on their bottles unless the oil complies with the reduced Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDDP) standard.

    No manufacture is beyond making mistakes, Yamaha proved that in having to repair the first several hundred Star Venture/Eluder's off the assembly line. Then we have the three confirmed cases of cam/lifter failure yours being one of them and you used Yamalube 10w-40.
    American ·
    I have one last thought on these oils and I will be done with the topic, you know it was the EPA that forced the API to reduce the amount of Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDDP) in automotive oils. JASO is a Japanese rating but that is what everyone goes by for motorcycle oils. More and more motorcycle are now having to install catalytic converters and it appears the EPA is forcing JASO to follow suit with what the API had to do and are now lowing the amount of Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDDP).

    For most engines it won't hurt them because they are not flat tappet designs like our Yamaha 1854 V-Twin so they can run the reduced Phosphorus and Zinc (ZDDP) oils without issue.
    American ·
    It is cheap insurance to just run an oil with more than 1,500 PPM of ZDDP in the first place than to risk running an oil with reduced ZDDP and your bike ends up in the shop having the cam and lifters replaced.

    This is a known problem with flat tappet style engines and oils with reduced ZDDP. This is kind of like the old Fram oil filter commercials "You can pay me now or you can pay me later".

    I decided to pay the man now and use an oil with enough ZDDP to protect the flat tappet cam/lifter system.
    American ·
    The problem is the pressure at the contact point of the lifter and the cam lobe is the highest pressure point in an engine and ZDDP is what allowed the flat tappet cam and lifter to work, the ZDDP provided the anti wear protection needed.

    I posted a link from an engine building site on the other forum that explains this as well while that site is more for high performance engine builds the information still applies.

    These Yamaha engines are using one cam lobe and one lifter to operate two valves and two valve springs at the same time that is like a high performance valve spring or heavy duty valve spring and there is where the ZDDP anti wear additive is needed.

    Look everyone can run what ever oil they want, I posted the information about the importance of ZDDP to this style of cam/lifter valve train, there have been three recored failures of the cam/lifter but how many have their been where the owners don't post on forums?
    American ·
    Be careful with your oil choices Tony, just because it is a Yamaha oil does not mean it will provide the proper protection. If the chart is correct that DuRon posted and I have no desire to argue with DuRon and Cowpuc again, but if that chart is current then it looks like the EPA has now turned their sites to motorcycle oils and are now making them remove ZDDP (Phosphorus and Zinc down to the same levels of between 800 PPM and 1,000 PPM which is what created the problem with automobile engines that run flat tappet cam and lifter systems.

    The oil companies claim that those new formulations will work with older flat tappet engines IF they have the OEM valve springs but even that has been disputed as there have been many failures of flat tappet cams/lifters in engines with OEM valve springs.
    American ·
    Just a heads up, Racer Parts Wholesale has a sale going on with Redline oil, the 10w-40 is down to $10.47 a quart. I just bought another case at that price, I will now have enough oil on hand for the next six oil changes on the Star Venture.
    American ·
    Potassium was 0 ppm universal averages are 2 ppm.

    Boron was 18 ppm universal averages are 81 ppm.

    Silicone was 14 ppm universal averages are 10 ppm. (Note, Redline adds silicone as an anti foam additive)

    Sodium was 8 ppm universal averages are 59 ppm.

    Calcium was 3021 ppm universal averages are 2482 ppm. (Note calcium is a detergent)

    Magnesium was 7 ppm universal averages are 194 ppm.

    Phosphorus was 1855 ppm universal averages are 1192.

    Zinc was 2055 ppm universal averages are 1392.

    Barium was 1 ppm universal averages are 1 ppm.

    Flashpoint in Degrees F 440.

    Fuel % <0.5% (< equals less than / > equals more than)

    Antifreeze % 0%

    Water % 0%

    Insolubles % TR (TR equals trace)

    TBN 7.3 (TBN was very strong, TBN are additives that neutralize acids)
    American ·
    Copper was 2 ppm universal averages are 7 ppm.

    Lead was 0 ppm universal averages are 1 ppm.

    Tin was 0 ppm universal averages are 1 ppm.

    Molybdenum was 530 ppm universal averages are 61 ppm.

    Nickel 1 ppm universal averages are 1 ppm.

    Manganese was 0 ppm universal averages are 1 ppm.

    Silver was 0 ppm universal averages are 0 ppm.

    Titanium was 0 ppm universal averages are 0 ppm.
    American ·
    Three posts.

    Blackstone Laboratories Used Oil Report: I just got back my used oil report.

    Comments: Thanks for the details on this engine. The external oil cooler and oil tank you mentioned aren't leaving any extra metal behind in the oil, and we'd say break-in has fully cleared out of the engine by now. Aluminum and iron are lower than last time after a longer oil run, showing solid improvements on both an outright and ppm/mile basis. The viscosity did end up a shade think for 10w-40, but residual oil from the previous fill may be to blame for that, given the the last sample had a 15w-50 viscosity. The TBN is strong at 7.3. Nice!

    The engine had 8,000 miles on it at the oil change.

    Aluminum was 5 ppm universal averages are 7 ppm.

    Chromium was 0 ppm universal averages are 0 ppm.

    Iron was 6 ppm universal averages are 13 ppm.
    American ·
    One way to address this issue is to use a ZDDP crankcase additive to add extra anti-wear protection to the oil, or to use a diesel oil, street performance oil or racing oil that contains 1500 ppm or more of ZDDP.

    Now remember Tony that our valve trains have one lifer and cam lobe operating two valves and valve springs so that would be like a heavy duty valve spring.

    That is why Yamalube has so much ZDDP in it. Stick with Redline, Amsoil, Royal Purple or Yamalube motorcycle oils for the ZDDP content to protect the valve train.
    American ·
    Reducing ZDDP in motor oil does not create a wear problem for engines with roller cams or overhead cams because there is much less friction between the cam and lifters or valve followers than in a flat tappet engine. Oil companies say today’s low ZDDP motor oils also provide adequate protection in older engines with flat tappet cams – provided the engine has stock valve springs. But the lower ZDDP levels have often proven to be woefully inadequate in engines with flat tappet performance cams and stiffer valve springs.

    The small contact patch between the cam lobes and lifters is the highest pressure point inside the engine. If there is insufficient oil between the cam lobes and lifters and/or the oil lacks sufficient levels of anti-wear additive, the cam lobes and/or lifters may suffer the consequences.
    American ·
    Multiple posts

    Tony,

    I did some more research on flat tappet cams/lifter and ZDDP and found some good information.

    Flat tappet cams, with either solid or hydraulic lifters, are commonly used in many street and performance engines. It’s a simple design that works well, provided there’s adequate lubrication between the lifters and cam lobes to prevent wear that can wipe out a cam and/or lifters.

    The problem is today’s motor oils contain much less ZDDP anti-wear additive than in years past. Most oils contain less than 800 parts per million (ppm) of ZDDP to comply with emission requirements, because ZDDP that finds its way into the exhaust can shorten the life of catalytic converters and O2 sensors.
    American ·
    Tony,

    Not to push any one brand of oil but I highly recommend you change over to either Redline motorcycle oil, Royal Purple motorcycle oil, Amsoil motorcycle oil or run the Yamalube motorcycle oil, that way you know the oil is a full group IV or group V synthetic with high levels of ZDDP and won't shear down to a 20 weight or less oil.
    American ·
    One more very alarming stat showed up in that used oil samples lab report:

    Viscosity (cSt 100C) 7.7

    Viscosity was down to a 7.7 which I believe is like a 20 weight which means the oil sheared badly.

    In our environment with a gear driven primary and the transmission gears that oil would shear even worse, I think maybe you had a two fold issue 1. lack of ZDDP in the Quicksilver 2. The viscosity of the Quicksilver shears down quickly.

    That report was taken on a marine engine so add in our gear driven primary and the transmission gears I would not doubt that the Quicksilver might have sheared down to a 10 weight or less oil, not good and could have been a contributing factor in your lifter and cam issue.
    American ·
    OK, I did some research and finally found a used oil sample of the 25w-40 Quicksilver oil and it is a reduced ZDDP oil, not good for our engines.

    This is the amount of ZDDP that was in the sample, as you can see it is far below Yamalubes Phosphorus and Zinc levels as well as far below Redlines Phosphorus and Zinc levels as well. The levels listed for the Quicksilver are below.

    Phosphorus (P) 1056

    Zinc (Zn) 1120

    I would not run Quicksilver in these Yamaha engines.
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