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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
"Folks...because I had purchased my SVTC east of Toronto...we passed my dealership...so I wanted to just drop in...and say hello. We did that...(and also hit his bathroom, lol) but...that is NOT the 'meat' of this posting...------This is....:"
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I asked if anybody else he sold to, had any issues with any low engine serial numbered SVTC or Eluder...that had to have their engine rebuilt for the leaking oil main crankcase gasket...and did anybody have to have the (blah, blah, and blah....) cam lobes and mating H.L. lifters replaced because they did not get possibly re-pre-lubed when being put back together...?"

He looked at me, like I was on very ...very cheap drugs...and then said "Joe...what the H*LL are you talking about...?!?!?!?"

Well...I got flustered...and gabbed up a storm of how there has been two SVTC's with the same problem that we have all been following from Chief's experience, and that other chap's...and that we had been told of the first 500 call back, to fix a LEAKING OIL GASKET!!!!

He let me finish...and then he went into his document drawer...and pulled out a communicative from Yamaha Canada, that was dated sometime in November/17...when he asked what the delay reason was...for his not getting his September/October/17 shipments.

The written response, was this Folks...for I read it...(but before you ask..NO...he wouldn't let me have a copy of it, to post...he said that he could get into very serious trouble in doing that...but let me read the internal memo)...but back to what the memo said. The TRUE REASON that 500 bikes that had been built on the assembly line...and already were being shipped, but were called back to Japan, was this:

The bike's Power Head, the computer unit/module that controls the whole show...even higher than the E.C.M...had a serious software/hardware glitch...that was FOUND OUT AT THE LAUNCH OF THE MODEL------> The bikes that were there, at Americade (sp?) had a fatal glitch, that the bike would start...but then, at any time, the bike would NOT start again...and be dead in the water. They hushed that right up....and called Japan, to put an immediate hold on the early delivery program bikes....to find out what the heck was going on...software? Hardware?

Folks..at NO TIME, WAS ANY ENGINE TAKEN APART TO FIX A LEAKING OIL GASKET...NO SIR...THAT WAS NOT THE REASON FOR THE 3 MONTH DELIVERY HOLD BACK....IT WAS A SOFTWARE/HARDWARE ISSUE. NO ENGINE WAS EVER TAKEN APART AFTER HAVING BEEN ASSEMBLED UPON THE LINE. They probably replaced the Power Head that is controlled by the main and critical software. So...folks...that was the reason for the delay rollout and delivery.

So...there was NO WAY, that Chief's (Tony)'s bike had his failure because of the possibility that the 're-assembly' tech did not brush pre-lube on the cams and the follower. The bikes never were torn down...period! I saw the memo today...and it was software/Power Head...with the bikes (some) not being able to start past a certain start up number of times....THAT was what was going on...and found out, by the early 'reveal' models at Americade. End of story....so whatever happened to both Tony's and the other fellow's H.L. issue...could be just bad parts...defective parts unfortunaley showing up in their engines. There are thousands of other SVTC and Eluder engines running just fine...so, that also speaks to...if you are running a good oil...not bought from somebody's back yard, garbage pail...you should be fine. I still will stick with premium oils...even now knowing it had nothing to do with a rebuid, or how much PSI. pressure the cams are exerting on the H.L.'s...two bikes out of thousands...means we, the rest..are 'good to go'. :) Happy touring, all! Great bike...had a software issue...they held them all back, until they nailed that down...and here we are today...with hundreds of thousands of miles across all SVTC's and Eluders currently on the road...and we are all Happy Campers...(except for two...) but one of them is now a Happy Camper once more, lol! Right, Chief?

Over and out...(for I yelled this all, over C.B. '19'....virtually, or course...lol :)

No fears...no engines taken apart..not the first 500..not one of them...no bad, failed oil gaskets...all engines oil tight from the assembly line...just (as in all high tech) some software/hardware glitches...now fixed!

Joe
 

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"Folks...because I had purchased my SVTC east of Toronto...we passed my dealership...so I wanted to just drop in...and say hello. We did that...(and also hit his bathroom, lol) but...that is NOT the 'meat' of this posting...------This is....:"
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I asked if anybody else he sold to, had any issues with any low engine serial numbered SVTC or Eluder...that had to have their engine rebuilt for the leaking oil main crankcase gasket...and did anybody have to have the (blah, blah, and blah....) cam lobes and mating H.L. lifters replaced because they did not get possibly re-pre-lubed when being put back together...?"

He looked at me, like I was on very ...very cheap drugs...and then said "Joe...what the H*LL are you talking about...?!?!?!?"

Well...I got flustered...and gabbed up a storm of how there has been two SVTC's with the same problem that we have all been following from Chief's experience, and that other chap's...and that we had been told of the first 500 call back, to fix a LEAKING OIL GASKET!!!!

He let me finish...and then he went into his document drawer...and pulled out a communicative from Yamaha Canada, that was dated sometime in November/17...when he asked what the delay reason was...for his not getting his September/October/17 shipments.

The written response, was this Folks...for I read it...(but before you ask..NO...he wouldn't let me have a copy of it, to post...he said that he could get into very serious trouble in doing that...but let me read the internal memo)...but back to what the memo said. The TRUE REASON that 500 bikes that had been built on the assembly line...and already were being shipped, but were called back to Japan, was this:

The bike's Power Head, the computer unit/module that controls the whole show...even higher than the E.C.M...had a serious software/hardware glitch...that was FOUND OUT AT THE LAUNCH OF THE MODEL------> The bikes that were there, at Americade (sp?) had a fatal glitch, that the bike would start...but then, at any time, the bike would NOT start again...and be dead in the water. They hushed that right up....and called Japan, to put an immediate hold on the early delivery program bikes....to find out what the heck was going on...software? Hardware?

Folks..at NO TIME, WAS ANY ENGINE TAKEN APART TO FIX A LEAKING OIL GASKET...NO SIR...THAT WAS NOT THE REASON FOR THE 3 MONTH DELIVERY HOLD BACK....IT WAS A SOFTWARE/HARDWARE ISSUE. NO ENGINE WAS EVER TAKEN APART AFTER HAVING BEEN ASSEMBLED UPON THE LINE. They probably replaced the Power Head that is controlled by the main and critical software. So...folks...that was the reason for the delay rollout and delivery.

So...there was NO WAY, that Chief's (Tony)'s bike had his failure because of the possibility that the 're-assembly' tech did not brush pre-lube on the cams and the follower. The bikes never were torn down...period! I saw the memo today...and it was software/Power Head...with the bikes (some) not being able to start past a certain start up number of times....THAT was what was going on...and found out, by the early 'reveal' models at Americade. End of story....so whatever happened to both Tony's and the other fellow's H.L. issue...could be just bad parts...defective parts unfortunaley showing up in their engines. There are thousands of other SVTC and Eluder engines running just fine...so, that also speaks to...if you are running a good oil...not bought from somebody's back yard, garbage pail...you should be fine. I still will stick with premium oils...even now knowing it had nothing to do with a rebuid, or how much PSI. pressure the cams are exerting on the H.L.'s...two bikes out of thousands...means we, the rest..are 'good to go'. /forums/images/smilies/smile.gif Happy touring, all! Great bike...had a software issue...they held them all back, until they nailed that down...and here we are today...with hundreds of thousands of miles across all SVTC's and Eluders currently on the road...and we are all Happy Campers...(except for two...) but one of them is now a Happy Camper once more, lol! Right, Chief?

Over and out...(for I yelled this all, over C.B. '19'....virtually, or course...lol /forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

No fears...no engines taken apart..not the first 500..not one of them...no bad, failed oil gaskets...all engines oil tight from the assembly line...just (as in all high tech) some software/hardware glitches...now fixed!

Joe
Thats good info Joe. Thanks!
Oh, BTW YES!
I’m absolutely a “Happy Camper”!
The bike performed flawlessly and if I may say so with all humility, “impressively” in the corners! GO Watch on the rally video 10 of 13 where GArider is behind us. Riding TWO UP and walking away from the pack.
I don’t think people expected a bike this big to handle like that... but it DOES!

BTW, I don’t need to tell how exciting it was pulling up and seeing this sign!
 

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I am only posting in response to your post because we will never know the true reason whey the first 500 Venture/Eluders where held at the factory unless Yamaha put out a press release and that won't likely happen. Also Yamaha only had a target of 2000 or 2500 Ventures/eluders for the first year, knowing they were late delivering the bikes until late December early January for the first ones to arrive we don't know how many are actually on the road, for all we know Yamaha has only moved 300 or they could have moved 1000, unless we can see the sales figures on these bikes we just don't know how many are on the road. What we do know is there are not thousands of these Ventures/Eluders on the road at this time.

The oil leak was reported by someone who had talked to a Yamaha representative, I don't recall where and who it was but that was what that person was told by the Yamaha representative and that something on the assembly line was not within the correct tolerance for the first 500 units off the assembly line and that issue had been corrected. I am not the only one who saw that information.

Now you are saying it was a hardware/software issue of some power head unit/module that controls everything and is over the ECU.

Sorry but I am finding that one hard to believe.

1. The ECU is the brains of the system and everything else is a submodule off of the ECU.

2. The ABS ECU is its own separate module for the ABS braking system that has a coupler to communicate with the ECU.

3. The head unit is the infotainment system and searching through the manual I can not find anything in it where the infotainment head unit does anything more than monitor a handful of engine perimeters, i.e. voltage output, Tire pressure monitor, and fuel read outs. Pretty much everything else is infotainment/navigation.

Searching through the service manual I cannot find any mention of a power head unit like you are describing. I looked at the ECU section and it makes no mention of this power head unit. It also does not make a lot of sense to return those motorcycles back to the factory for a simple module replacement and a software update as that is what it would be, that is something a dealer would have no problem completing. Yamaha is like other manufactures in that they hook up the motorcycle to the diagnostic port and that communicates with Yamaha and any software updates that are available/needed are downloaded into the ECU, ABS ECU. The Infotainment head unit would be updated via the USB port. Reviewing the head unit infotainment/navigation section of the service manual does not refer anything going back to the ECU for trouble shooting.

Going through the service manual "no start" procedure the last item on the check list is Replace the Engine Control Unit (ECU).

I suspect what you read was a service bulletin for the infotainment system. A no start issue with the engine does not refer anything back to the infotainment head unit.

The issue with a no start was likely a software update with the ECU, again something that would easily be handled at the dealer level via the Yamaha diagnostic port.

The last thing a dealer is going to want to admit to is a major powertrain problem. From what you are describing that service bulletin sounds like it was dealing with the infotainment system. If it was dealing with the ECU then anything else it was discussing would have been relays, resisters and solenoids which would be subcomponents to the ECU as I am not finding any other control modules outside of the ABS ECU and the infotainment head unit which is not a diagnostic part for a no start condition.

As for the cam/lifter failures there have been three reported failures, while you and gunner may want to discount the one who posted about it and said parts were back ordered through October that was still a third report. The other reported failure was someone who said their engine started making a lot of noise around the 3,000 miles mark and it was the cam/lifter issue.

Most manufactures use roller cam/lifters today or they use an overhead cam/follower set up both of which are systems that are much easier on the cam lobe because both the roller cam/lifer and overhead cam/follower systems do not create near as much friction on the cam lobe and lifter that a flat tappet style cam/lifter does. Yamaha has not found a silver Bullet that removed that friction that all flat tappet cam/lifter system experience. There is plenty of information about flat tappet cams/lifter failing over the years.

You can do your own duckduckgo, or what ever search engine you use to educate yourself on flat tappet cams/lifters needs for ZDDP.

The reason this is an issue with this Yamaha V-Twin is because it uses one cam lobe, one lifter, one push rod and one rocker arm to operate two valves and valve springs at the same time effectively doubling the spring pressure, this engine is not like a single valve rocker arm system. The problem is compounded by the design in that the push rod is on one side of the rocker arm with the valves to the side of the push rod. This is like running a dual valve spring performance cam system, while on the lower end of that performance cam system it is still well above a stock oem single valve system.

Also the new API/JASO compliant oils with the reduced ZDDP, the new anti wear additives do not adhere to the metal parts like ZDDP does, and that is where the problem lies with flat tappet cams/lifters and these new API/JASO oils.

Again the new reduced ZDDP oils do not effect modern roller cam and over head cam style valve trains but they have been proven to be harmful to flat tappet cam/lifter system such as the one in this Yamaha V-Twin.

That is all I have to say on this subject make up your own minds and run what ever oils you like, I will continue to run oils with over 1500 PPM of ZDDP in them, not only does it proved the best protection for a flat tappet cam/lifter system it is good for the gear driven primary and transmission as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I am only posting in response to your post because we will never know the true reason whey the first 500 Venture/Eluders where held at the factory unless Yamaha put out a press release and that won't likely happen. Also Yamaha only had a target of 2000 or 2500 Ventures/eluders for the first year, knowing they were late delivering the bikes until late December early January for the first ones to arrive we don't know how many are actually on the road, for all we know Yamaha has only moved 300 or they could have moved 1000, unless we can see the sales figures on these bikes we just don't know how many are on the road. What we do know is there are not thousands of these Ventures/Eluders on the road at this time.

The oil leak was reported by someone who had talked to a Yamaha representative, I don't recall where and who it was but that was what that person was told by the Yamaha representative and that something on the assembly line was not within the correct tolerance for the first 500 units off the assembly line and that issue had been corrected. I am not the only one who saw that information.

Now you are saying it was a hardware/software issue of some power head unit/module that controls everything and is over the ECU.

Sorry but I am finding that one hard to believe.

1. The ECU is the brains of the system and everything else is a submodule off of the ECU.

2. The ABS ECU is its own separate module for the ABS braking system that has a coupler to communicate with the ECU.

3. The head unit is the infotainment system and searching through the manual I can not find anything in it where the infotainment head unit does anything more than monitor a handful of engine perimeters, i.e. voltage output, Tire pressure monitor, and fuel read outs. Pretty much everything else is infotainment/navigation.

Searching through the service manual I cannot find any mention of a power head unit like you are describing. I looked at the ECU section and it makes no mention of this power head unit. It also does not make a lot of sense to return those motorcycles back to the factory for a simple module replacement and a software update as that is what it would be, that is something a dealer would have no problem completing. Yamaha is like other manufactures in that they hook up the motorcycle to the diagnostic port and that communicates with Yamaha and any software updates that are available/needed are downloaded into the ECU, ABS ECU. The Infotainment head unit would be updated via the USB port. Reviewing the head unit infotainment/navigation section of the service manual does not refer anything going back to the ECU for trouble shooting.

Going through the service manual "no start" procedure the last item on the check list is Replace the Engine Control Unit (ECU).

I suspect what you read was a service bulletin for the infotainment system. A no start issue with the engine does not refer anything back to the infotainment head unit.

The issue with a no start was likely a software update with the ECU, again something that would easily be handled at the dealer level via the Yamaha diagnostic port.

The last thing a dealer is going to want to admit to is a major powertrain problem. From what you are describing that service bulletin sounds like it was dealing with the infotainment system. If it was dealing with the ECU then anything else it was discussing would have been relays, resisters and solenoids which would be subcomponents to the ECU as I am not finding any other control modules outside of the ABS ECU and the infotainment head unit which is not a diagnostic part for a no start condition.

As for the cam/lifter failures there have been three reported failures, while you and gunner may want to discount the one who posted about it and said parts were back ordered through October that was still a third report. The other reported failure was someone who said their engine started making a lot of noise around the 3,000 miles mark and it was the cam/lifter issue.

Most manufactures use roller cam/lifters today or they use an overhead cam/follower set up both of which are systems that are much easier on the cam lobe because both the roller cam/lifer and overhead cam/follower systems do not create near as much friction on the cam lobe and lifter that a flat tappet style cam/lifter does. Yamaha has not found a silver Bullet that removed that friction that all flat tappet cam/lifter system experience. There is plenty of information about flat tappet cams/lifter failing over the years.

You can do your own duckduckgo, or what ever search engine you use to educate yourself on flat tappet cams/lifters needs for ZDDP.

The reason this is an issue with this Yamaha V-Twin is because it uses one cam lobe, one lifter, one push rod and one rocker arm to operate two valves and valve springs at the same time effectively doubling the spring pressure, this engine is not like a single valve rocker arm system. The problem is compounded by the design in that the push rod is on one side of the rocker arm with the valves to the side of the push rod. This is like running a dual valve spring performance cam system, while on the lower end of that performance cam system it is still well above a stock oem single valve system.

Also the new API/JASO compliant oils with the reduced ZDDP, the new anti wear additives do not adhere to the metal parts like ZDDP does, and that is where the problem lies with flat tappet cams/lifters and these new API/JASO oils.

Again the new reduced ZDDP oils do not effect modern roller cam and over head cam style valve trains but they have been proven to be harmful to flat tappet cam/lifter system such as the one in this Yamaha V-Twin.

That is all I have to say on this subject make up your own minds and run what ever oils you like, I will continue to run oils with over 1500 PPM of ZDDP in them, not only does it proved the best protection for a flat tappet cam/lifter system it is good for the gear driven primary and transmission as well.
Bill, I read the response from Yamaha Canada to the dealer inquiry. It stated it was a software/Control head issue. and nothing stated about any oil leaks from production units. They had issues with the units at their launch, not starting after a number of times, the written response stated that that was the cause of the hold back. Not anything to do with oil gaskets not properly installed upon the line. People will have to believe what best resonates with them. The line not getting gasket cases properly in place, always rated weird to me...for they would have run those engines at the end of the line, for the start up line check..and would have found that issue right then and there...and not have already had bikes in the shipping lane.

A software/Control Head issue is much more plausible, over a massive production line, crank case oil leak issue. Much more plausible. I go with that...as I read with my own eyes...and was not 'told' what happened. If there is a problem with the oils of today, not being able to keep the flat tappet structure of the present engine design, running without destructive wear damage to the cam lobe, or its running follower....then Yamaha will have to step up to the plate...and do a recall, as they did on the TX-750 which was their first full recall of a model line in their company history. We'll see if they have gone to roller style H.L's in the '19 model year...and if so...and they do nothing for the owners of '18's...then in my view...the **** will hit the fan. We'll have to see, and watch it play out...but...so far...only two out of thousands produced has had this happen. I have searched the Web..and nobody else has complained of downtime due to cooked cam lobes and failed lifters...

BTW, it wasn't a service bulletin, Bill...it was a response to the dealer, from his asking Corporate what was going on...and why he didn't have stock. They sent back that it was a software glitch that prevented some of their first run sample bikes from starting up. It was intermittent , and they pulled back production stock to find out what was going on, before the dealers got them. They obviously wanted no problems being shipped to dealers on this very important launch. That is most plausible to this man's mind. Oil leaks...would have been found from the get go...at that end of the line, when they do a full run-up of each engine. They do that for all Honda Goldwing engines, at the end of the production line, before it is placed into a frame. Yamaha would certainly do the same thing...to prevent $$$'s of downtime to pull back that engine...from the already installed location.

Bill, I know what I read...but is that even any,or all of the truth...of course, we don't work for the Company...and will never know...they could have been feeding any story line to that dealer as well, merely to pacify him. Who knows?!? But that is the first thing I have seen, written, other than WEB 'this is what it was'... The one thing that strikes me as strange...does not all Raider and pre 2018 SVTC V-twin motors run eight valves off of four H.L's? If so...why have we not heard many of these owners, posting that their cam's were eating the H.L.'s flat tappets bottoms? That seems very strange to me. They would be running the same oils available that anybody else is....so what's your take on that?

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Post Edit...btw...no matter what...I am, and will be sticking with a premium oil...that has ester, and a high film strength. My research so far, is that Royal Purple with their Synerlec additive package (you can bet it has high ZDDP and Ester content) has the highest film strength in the industry.) I have settled on their Royal Purple Max Cycle 10W40 for use in both my bikes. I bought into your '40' as running better than a '50', as that makes sense, and I picked up some tranny whine, when having switched to a 50 oil after the YamaMama 10W40 mineral oil was swapped out. If, when I make the change later on before late Fall, to 10W40, and the engine sounds quieter...I will certainly make mention of that. I have no problem with the YamaLube 15W50 that is in the bike presently, but your 'take' on your engine oil reports on 40 vs 50, got me quite curious to see for myself....and will.

Post Edit...just thought of something...if Yamaha starts building any model year run starting in JUNE of the current year, for the next...there won't be any mods to the cam/H.L. followers....as the reported problems with some, hadn't been reported, or to have occured yet. So....I'll bet dollars to donuts...the same valve train gear will be in the early '19's.....or for the entire '19 model year production run....yep.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thats good info Joe. Thanks!
Oh, BTW YES!
I’m absolutely a “Happy Camper”!
The bike performed flawlessly and if I may say so with all humility, “impressively” in the corners! GO Watch on the rally video 10 of 13 where GArider is behind us. Riding TWO UP and walking away from the pack.
I don’t think people expected a bike this big to handle like that... but it DOES!

BTW, I don’t need to tell how exciting it was pulling up and seeing this sign!
Tony...I went to YouTube..but only found year's old videos of that run...where is the link, you and Rich are featured? Thanks...
 

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The information about 500 bikes being recalled or held back and reworking the engines seems to be taken as fact. If that did not happen I would expect Yamaha to come out and dispute the claim.

I agree with the statement that an electrical or SW issue would not warrant bikes being shipped back to Japan for repair.

It is possible that a peripheral module like the entertainment system could lock up the ECM and keep the bike from starting. While it would not have a function to prevent the ECM from starting the bike, anything that is connected to the ECM could go into an error state, bombard the ECM with communication messages or signals, and keep the ECM so busy that it would lock up and not be able to perform its normal function.

There is also a condition with digital logic, an input or output pin is suppose to be either in a Hi or Low state. If there is a hardware fault and a pin is being held in a state that is neither hi or low, that can cause the connected device to latch up its input pins, which throws the module into an undefined state.

Normally things like this should never happen, and when they do they can be intermittent, only happen under certain conditions, and be very hard to catch and debug.

Unless Yamaha comes out with an official statement for the public regarding "The 500" we cannot know for sure why production was delayed.
 

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Thats good info Joe. Thanks!
Oh, BTW YES!
I’m absolutely a “Happy Camper”!
The bike performed flawlessly and if I may say so with all humility, “impressively” in the corners! GO Watch on the rally video 10 of 13 where GArider is behind us. Riding TWO UP and walking away from the pack.
I don’t think people expected a bike this big to handle like that... but it DOES!

BTW, I don’t need to tell how exciting it was pulling up and seeing this sign!
Tony...I went to YouTube..but only found year's old videos of that run...where is the link, you and Rich are featured? Thanks...
Go to the Regional Ride Report thread and GArider (Rich) put links up there.
ENJOY! 😁
 

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Thought I’d post this from a Raider Forum which has almost an identical engine design.
It’s an OFFICIAL RELEASE to the dealerships FROM Yamaha.
Interesting to say the least!

This is the official tech bulletin from Yamaha 2/20/06

TECH EXCHANGE

Explanation of engine mechanical noise characteristics
XV1600/1700 Road Star models

Please use the information in this bulletin to assist you in handling customer concerns about normal engine noise

Yamaha designed the Road Star to be a very special motorcycle, the heart of which is it's enormous v-twin engine. Our goals were to build a big-bore, high torque engine in the tradition of classic motorcycles that have long been part of the American landscape. We also wanted it to have the exceptionally clean, muscular lines that without a doubt would draw attention to the Road Star.

Several engineering decisions were made to accomplish our goals. For example, we chose traditional no-fuss air-cooling so as not to have a radiator detract from the bikes clean lines. We chose proven push-rod valve actuation to give the engine it's particular style, as well as it's particular height and weight distribution characteristics. We also gave it 98-102-cubic inch displacement-bigger than many car engines-with massive internal components like a crankshaft that alone weighs a hefty 45lbs.

If a customer should question the overall engine noise level, explain to them that certain mechanical operating noises from the engine are expected, and the Road Star is no exception. It has engine-operating sounds that are inherent precisely because of the type of engine that it is. The air cooled engine design used for the Road Star, unlike liquid-cooled engines, does not have a sound deadening , liquid-filled jacket surrounding most of the sound-producing mechanical engine components. What is at issue is what are normal and abnormal noises.

Remind the customer that this is a very large air-cooled engine. Aluminum and other metal components expand when they get hot, and the engine is designed with operating tolerances to accommodate for this expected characteristic of the metal. The result is that the customer will likely hear more overall mechanical noises from the engine when it's hot and the oil is thinner.

Above all, make sure the customer is aware that the Road Star engine is proving itself to be extremely reliable and we are confident that Road Star will deliver trustworthy performance for years to come. assure them that normal mechanical noises are not the sign of impending engine failure.

Engine Noise Analysis
tapping noise from camshaft area

Normal Noise READ THIS!!!!!!


During initial engine start-up, the customer may occasionally hear a tapping noise from the camshaft area and, within a few minutes, the noise subsides. explain that this is due to extra clearance at the push rod end before the hydraulic lifter is pumped up. When the engine is turned off and it stops in a position where one of the valves is open, that lifter will bleed down over time due to the constant pressure applied to the lifter by the valve spring. When the engine is restarted, a small amount of air may enter the lifter and it can take a few minutes for the air to bleed out of the lifter and self adjust to proper clearance.
Abnormal Noise
Constant tapping noise regardless of engine temperature - may be caused by what is called a flat lifter. if the piston inside the hydraulic lifter becomes scratched, the lifter will not be able to hold the compressed oil inside to take up the valve/push rod clearance. explain that a failed lifter will need to be replaced.

Ticking Noise from Cylinder Head Area

Normal Noise
Explain that a light ticking noise is normal due to the compact air-cooled design of the cylinder heads, which allows the sound of rocker arm loading/unloading and valve-to-valve eat contact to be heard. Clarify that the ticking noise may increase slightly as the engine gets hot where the engine parts expand and the oil thins down.
Abnormal Noise
A consistently loud ticking noise, regardless of engine temperature may be caused by an improper valve clearance adjustment. Explain that this engine is designed with 2 intake valves and 2 exhaust vales per cylinder. The single rocker opens and closes both valves at the same time. One side of the rocker is nonadjustable and the clearance is self adjusted by the hydraulic lifter. The other side is adjustable and must be adjusted so the valve contact point is the same as the other side.

Knocking Noise from Crankshaft Area

Normal Noise
When an extremely hot engine is idling, the customer may hear what some describe as a light knocking noise coming from the crankshaft area, primarily from the right side. The noise is more pronounced if the idle speed drops below 900rpm. this is a normal engine noise.
Explain that the Road Star engine is designed to produce very high torque at low engine operating rpm. Because of this low operating rpm, for the alternator to produce sufficient electrical output to support the system, the alternator is driven off of a jackshaft which is geared to the crankshaft and spins at approximately 2 time the engine rpm.
As the engine heats up and the aluminum crankcase expands, the gear lash (clearance) is increased between the alternator shaft drive and driven gear. Inform the customer that, normally, the oil viscosity dampens the gear contact surfaces and helps reduce mechanical noise. However, in this case, the oil is thin which reduces the damping effect.
Under these conditions, if the machine is put into 1st gear and the engine is loaded down below 500 rpm with the brakes applied, the described knocking noise will become even more pronounced. Explain that this is because of several factors. 1st, the ignition timing is set for 900 rpm idle speed. At below 500 rpm, the timing is too far advanced and causes early combustion which will try to force the piston down in the opposite direction. 2nd, at such low rpm, the oil pressure is also very low which affect the damping effect at crankshaft plain bearings. Combine these factors with the slow spinning alternator shaft which is juddering from the magnetic field of the alternator rotor, the engine will make some mechanical noises. Reassure the customer that this is common with any engine design and does not indicate excessive wear/clearance of components or impending failure.
Abnormal Noise
If the engine is consistently making what is described as a knocking noise regardless of engine temperature or load, convey that it may be due to a bearing or bearing surface failure at the upper or lower connecting rod or crankshaft plain bearings. if your customer is concerned that a normal operating noise is impending bearing failure, remind him or her that bearing failures get progressively worse in a short time. if the noise hasn't been getting worse or even seems to "fix itself" from time to time, it's not a bearing failure.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
The information about 500 bikes being recalled or held back and reworking the engines seems to be taken as fact. If that did not happen I would expect Yamaha to come out and dispute the claim.

I agree with the statement that an electrical or SW issue would not warrant bikes being shipped back to Japan for repair.

It is possible that a peripheral module like the entertainment system could lock up the ECM and keep the bike from starting. While it would not have a function to prevent the ECM from starting the bike, anything that is connected to the ECM could go into an error state, bombard the ECM with communication messages or signals, and keep the ECM so busy that it would lock up and not be able to perform its normal function.

There is also a condition with digital logic, an input or output pin is suppose to be either in a Hi or Low state. If there is a hardware fault and a pin is being held in a state that is neither hi or low, that can cause the connected device to latch up its input pins, which throws the module into an undefined state.

Normally things like this should never happen, and when they do they can be intermittent, only happen under certain conditions, and be very hard to catch and debug.

Unless Yamaha comes out with an official statement for the public regarding "The 500" we cannot know for sure why production was delayed.
KCW, I totally agree, that Yamaha USA and Canada has not, released an official PUBLIC declaration of WHY they delayed the Early Delivery Program Yamaha Star Venture and Eluder motorcycles to the Early Delivery Program, as well as those of us, that ordered post-program, but took 10 months...yes, ten months to finally take delivery of our bikes that were contracted with a deposit.

I absolutely agree with that...and for the record now, I will alter my post, by making it a personal statement, in such, that in contrast to having 'heard', or 'read' upon the net in motorcycle forums, and NOT having read an official declaration from Yamaha USA or Canada branches, of the why's and wherefores' of the delay, and that I in contrast DID READ, not a technical bulletin , but a reply from Yamaha Canada to a dealer, that the hold back was because of engine starting, and continued running issues, that they (the dealer) did not receive his shipments, one of those, being mine that he and I were waiting on for almost a full 10 months...I will PERSONALLY, have to accept that as the reason for the delay. Now...since Yamaha has not stepped up to the plate and ended this controversy...and a hard question that SHOULD be put to rest, by them....it will be all a grasp at straws. I read what I read...on a official Yamaha Canada letterhead, that is was software/module/electrical in nature....not improperly placed oil fitting crankcase gaskets(s).....so I'll just accept that as my 'personal' explanation. Others of course such as you, Bill, etc...will make 'your take' on the delay reason, your own. :)

I don't think anybody interested all along in these types of threads...would argue that Yamaha should simply....send out a Public Response..('cause you can't tell me, ...that they are NOT aware of the controversy, upon a few forums associated and tied into their brand....for we all know, they are lurking, (Sales), and have passed this controversy around the board room....) but to date, have let it just run in the Wild....and that quite frankly, 'speaks' to me' not in a good way, at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Thought I’d post this from a Raider Forum which has almost an identical engine design.
It’s an OFFICIAL RELEASE to the dealerships FROM Yamaha.
Interesting to say the least!

This is the official tech bulletin from Yamaha 2/20/06

TECH EXCHANGE

Explanation of engine mechanical noise characteristics
XV1600/1700 Road Star models

Please use the information in this bulletin to assist you in handling customer concerns about normal engine noise

Yamaha designed the Road Star to be a very special motorcycle, the heart of which is it's enormous v-twin engine. Our goals were to build a big-bore, high torque engine in the tradition of classic motorcycles that have long been part of the American landscape. We also wanted it to have the exceptionally clean, muscular lines that without a doubt would draw attention to the Road Star.

Several engineering decisions were made to accomplish our goals. For example, we chose traditional no-fuss air-cooling so as not to have a radiator detract from the bikes clean lines. We chose proven push-rod valve actuation to give the engine it's particular style, as well as it's particular height and weight distribution characteristics. We also gave it 98-102-cubic inch displacement-bigger than many car engines-with massive internal components like a crankshaft that alone weighs a hefty 45lbs.

If a customer should question the overall engine noise level, explain to them that certain mechanical operating noises from the engine are expected, and the Road Star is no exception. It has engine-operating sounds that are inherent precisely because of the type of engine that it is. The air cooled engine design used for the Road Star, unlike liquid-cooled engines, does not have a sound deadening , liquid-filled jacket surrounding most of the sound-producing mechanical engine components. What is at issue is what are normal and abnormal noises.

Remind the customer that this is a very large air-cooled engine. Aluminum and other metal components expand when they get hot, and the engine is designed with operating tolerances to accommodate for this expected characteristic of the metal. The result is that the customer will likely hear more overall mechanical noises from the engine when it's hot and the oil is thinner.

Above all, make sure the customer is aware that the Road Star engine is proving itself to be extremely reliable and we are confident that Road Star will deliver trustworthy performance for years to come. assure them that normal mechanical noises are not the sign of impending engine failure.

Engine Noise Analysis
tapping noise from camshaft area

Normal Noise READ THIS!!!!!!


During initial engine start-up, the customer may occasionally hear a tapping noise from the camshaft area and, within a few minutes, the noise subsides. explain that this is due to extra clearance at the push rod end before the hydraulic lifter is pumped up. When the engine is turned off and it stops in a position where one of the valves is open, that lifter will bleed down over time due to the constant pressure applied to the lifter by the valve spring. When the engine is restarted, a small amount of air may enter the lifter and it can take a few minutes for the air to bleed out of the lifter and self adjust to proper clearance.
Abnormal Noise
Constant tapping noise regardless of engine temperature - may be caused by what is called a flat lifter. if the piston inside the hydraulic lifter becomes scratched, the lifter will not be able to hold the compressed oil inside to take up the valve/push rod clearance. explain that a failed lifter will need to be replaced.

Ticking Noise from Cylinder Head Area

Normal Noise
Explain that a light ticking noise is normal due to the compact air-cooled design of the cylinder heads, which allows the sound of rocker arm loading/unloading and valve-to-valve eat contact to be heard. Clarify that the ticking noise may increase slightly as the engine gets hot where the engine parts expand and the oil thins down.
Abnormal Noise
A consistently loud ticking noise, regardless of engine temperature may be caused by an improper valve clearance adjustment. Explain that this engine is designed with 2 intake valves and 2 exhaust vales per cylinder. The single rocker opens and closes both valves at the same time. One side of the rocker is nonadjustable and the clearance is self adjusted by the hydraulic lifter. The other side is adjustable and must be adjusted so the valve contact point is the same as the other side.

Knocking Noise from Crankshaft Area

Normal Noise
When an extremely hot engine is idling, the customer may hear what some describe as a light knocking noise coming from the crankshaft area, primarily from the right side. The noise is more pronounced if the idle speed drops below 900rpm. this is a normal engine noise.
Explain that the Road Star engine is designed to produce very high torque at low engine operating rpm. Because of this low operating rpm, for the alternator to produce sufficient electrical output to support the system, the alternator is driven off of a jackshaft which is geared to the crankshaft and spins at approximately 2 time the engine rpm.
As the engine heats up and the aluminum crankcase expands, the gear lash (clearance) is increased between the alternator shaft drive and driven gear. Inform the customer that, normally, the oil viscosity dampens the gear contact surfaces and helps reduce mechanical noise. However, in this case, the oil is thin which reduces the damping effect.
Under these conditions, if the machine is put into 1st gear and the engine is loaded down below 500 rpm with the brakes applied, the described knocking noise will become even more pronounced. Explain that this is because of several factors. 1st, the ignition timing is set for 900 rpm idle speed. At below 500 rpm, the timing is too far advanced and causes early combustion which will try to force the piston down in the opposite direction. 2nd, at such low rpm, the oil pressure is also very low which affect the damping effect at crankshaft plain bearings. Combine these factors with the slow spinning alternator shaft which is juddering from the magnetic field of the alternator rotor, the engine will make some mechanical noises. Reassure the customer that this is common with any engine design and does not indicate excessive wear/clearance of components or impending failure.
Abnormal Noise
If the engine is consistently making what is described as a knocking noise regardless of engine temperature or load, convey that it may be due to a bearing or bearing surface failure at the upper or lower connecting rod or crankshaft plain bearings. if your customer is concerned that a normal operating noise is impending bearing failure, remind him or her that bearing failures get progressively worse in a short time. if the noise hasn't been getting worse or even seems to "fix itself" from time to time, it's not a bearing failure.
Dang...this is GREAT information...and why would Yamaha not put this out on their channel to allay any concerns with present 2018 SVTC and Eluder owners?!?!?!??!???!??!??

Thank you Chief, for added content to the thread. The more...the merrier...:)

Post Edit: Tony...I just captured and copied this entire post to a wordpro file in my SVTC folder. In case this post ever becomes WEB-unavailable, I wanted to have what is normal...why it is normal, and what sounds would NOT be normal, as posted by Yamaha themselves. It should be in everybody's growing SVTC/Eluder Folder!
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
We DID!
Oh BTW, here’s a video of the SVTC development I haven’t seen before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM6BdvQXaoU
Saw that...and shows the tech behind that ride. I will tell you...this is the first bike, ever, that I can say, I never have to wiggle around after half an hour ride has gone by, on their OEM saddle. Same for my wife. We just plop the cheeks down...settle in...and ride, for hours at a time. I always taught her to tell me WHEN she needs to butt-shift, so I can be prepared for the possible off-balance bike movement. Tony...(and this..is TRULY amazing...truly!) she has since first going out last May with me, to that first Tim Ride...has never advised me of an up and coming butt-shift.....and does not need to do so. Same for me.

If the careful design to the ergonomics of the saddle, also shows generally across the bike, in how the shape of the fairing for post-to-production entailed...I am even in more rapture regarding the SVTC. Tony...we love the bike, to almost a reader gagging...lol. I don't have one 'I wish they would have done THIS' with that..' None, except for one.....except for needing to have more info (cross streets being approached) in the Navigation Screen page, when NOT in a dedicated address from here, to there, run. That is my only complaint regarding how the bike is now. I know there is another complaint of Way Points, but since I have not really dialed in for an address, will be on our next major run to Boise, Idaho early next season...I hope they have by that time released a map/navigation update to address those two items. Other than that...to have a just-under, 1,000 pound bike before it goes 'wet' and with rider(s) and their gear..to get consistently 43 mpg at 60 mph....is something else! Lazy, at 60 in 6th...2,000 rpm I said earlier 2,100 on my going to see my sister-in-law posting last weekend, but coming home looked at it again with the bike set on Cruise at dead-on 60 mph...and the tach needle was right on the 2,000 mark. Amazing...amazing...only 1,100 rpm over idle...and we are cruising down the highway, two up with gear...she listening to whatever, or talking to whomever...me rocking and rolling with the Stones, and the Doobie Brothers....taking in some Cream...gawd...what a bike this is...what a bike! Miles dispense behind the rear tire...and the music rocks on....rubber necking the scenery all the way... (Funny insight...the one thing that my wife goes on and on about when we are approached by other riders of other brands..is to the co-rider, that she can make, and take calls, switch to any sound source, raise or lower the volume at will, and by the time we start to put our helmets on, the other co-rider is drooling all over her blouse....). The Dual Zone feature of this bike, really has engaged my wife, that she has 'control' like the rider...during the ride. Wow, Yamaha...nobody else can offer this?!?!?!? Yamaha, you go!!!

I know...I blurb on about how great this bike is...but Tony...I can't help it...every time we ride...it is better 'n better...and that prompted my 'evolving' break in post. Charlotte gets better with each trip out upon her....truly!
 

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We DID!
Oh BTW, here’s a video of the SVTC development I haven’t seen before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM6BdvQXaoU
Saw that...and shows the tech behind that ride. I will tell you...this is the first bike, ever, that I can say, I never have to wiggle around after half an hour ride has gone by, on their OEM saddle. Same for my wife. We just plop the cheeks down...settle in...and ride, for hours at a time. I always taught her to tell me WHEN she needs to butt-shift, so I can be prepared for the possible off-balance bike movement. Tony...(and this..is TRULY amazing...truly!) she has since first going out last May with me, to that first Tim Ride...has never advised me of an up and coming butt-shift.....and does not need to do so. Same for me.

If the careful design to the ergonomics of the saddle, also shows generally across the bike, in how the shape of the fairing for post-to-production entailed...I am even in more rapture regarding the SVTC. Tony...we love the bike, to almost a reader gagging...lol. I don't have one 'I wish they would have done THIS' with that..' None, except for one.....except for needing to have more info (cross streets being approached) in the Navigation Screen page, when NOT in a dedicated address from here, to there, run. That is my only complaint regarding how the bike is now. I know there is another complaint of Way Points, but since I have not really dialed in for an address, will be on our next major run to Boise, Idaho early next season...I hope they have by that time released a map/navigation update to address those two items. Other than that...to have a under 1,000 pound bike before it goes 'wet' and with rider(s) and their gear..to get consistently 43 mpg at 60 mph....is something else! Lazy, at 60 in 6th...2,000 rpm I said earlier 2,100 on my going to see my sister-in-law posting last weekend, but coming home looked at it again with the bike set on Cruise at dead-on 60 mph...and the tach needle was right on the 2,000 mark. Amazing...amazing...only 900 rpm over idle...and we are cruising down the highway, two up with gear...she listening to whatever, or talking to whomever...me rocking and rolling with the Stones, and the Doobie Brothers....taking in some Cream...gawd...what a bike this is...what a bike! Miles dispense behind the rear tire...and the music rocks on....rubber necking the scenery all the way... (Funny insight...the one thing that my wife goes on and on about when we are approached by other riders of other brands..is to the co-rider, that she can make, and take calls, switch to any sound source, raise or lower the volume at will, and by the time we start to put our helmets on, the other co-rider is drooling all over her blouse....). The Dual Zone feature of this bike, really has engaged my wife, that she has 'control' like the rider...during the ride. Wow, Yamaha...nobody else can offer this?!?!?!? Yamaha, you go!!!

I know...I blurb on about how great this bike is...but Tony...I can't help it...every time we ride...it is better 'n better...and that prompted my 'evolving' break in post. Charlotte gets better with each trip out upon her....truly!
BTW, while loping along the Blue Ridge Parkway in 4th gear, 40mph and 2k or less on the tach, the estimate fuel range displayed said 360 MILES!!
 
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