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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
...commentary...

Probably, everyone over the age of 10 has heard that expression at least a few times in their lives...

...and I was just musing about that phrase, in thinking about my own particular SVTC purchase, and was somewhat lamenting (at first...) that I'd wished that I would have waited one year, and seen how the model I was interested in, would be up-taken, with RTM. Especially with what we all have seen as to what the anemic adoption (purchase) has done for what prices are appearing around this time. And, then I started to think back, on my purchase...

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When I purchased my SVTC, (last October, 2017), at that time, It was a good deal, if you could get your dealer to move off of full MSRP, which up here in Canada, is still $31,999.00.

Well, last October, I did in fact get $2,000.00 dollars off that MSRP, so my deal was now at $29,999.00 CDN.

Now...here is where the 'Six of one, half dozen of the other' comes into play.

I had a trade in...that being a 2008 GL1800 Premium Sound/Nav Goldwing. At the time, my dealing for the 2018 Star Venture Transcontinental, was just ahead of the 'land rush' of other 2017 and older GL1800 owners that were about to flood the GL1800 resale market with wanting to deal on a 2018 Goldwing. I was just ahead of that glut that would come onto the market for Goldwings!

I was also fortunate that my Yamaha dealer had a couple he had spoken to, that really wanted to see our Goldwing, for they were actually looking at off-brand dealers (like going to a Yamaha dealer to ask about trade in off-brands (Goldwings...) for they thought they could score a more aggressive deal on one. As a result, (and in taking the time to show up at my Yamaha purchasing dealer with our 2008 Goldwing (which was pristine in every way!)), I got a most fabulous trade in price of reclaiming 50 percent of my purchasing cost in 2008, of $28,000.00 for our GL1800. My Yamaha dealer gave me $14,000.00 dollars for our GL1800, which was at that time, nearly $3,000.00 more than for the average trade in price in October/17 for a 2008 model. So....in musing tonight on my deal...in light of what the American prices on 2018 SVTC's are being sold for...

....I actually did better, financially, and at NET COST, buying when I did...at the very start and ramp up...when dealers didn't know what the next 8 months would bring, or the up-take of the model. I had a very motivated dealer wanting my Goldwing at that time, as well as he mostly never asked full MSRP on any Yamaha he had for sale, usually around $500.00 to $1,000.00 off MSRP before any dickering.

Even now...sipping my cup of 'joe'...and musing, I did alright...in fact...very much, alright.

At the top of the deal, I shaved $2,000.00 off. At the bottom end of the deal, I shaved getting $3,000.00 more than what Wings were going to be dealt in and allowed for, 2-3 months past October/17.

So...what was really my 'deal' bottom line...I got $5,000.00 shaved off the MSRP of $31,999.00 PLUS the savings of 13 % Ontario Sales Tax on the $3,000.00 more than what I would have gotten, had I dealt 3-8 months later, with all the GL1800's coming into the dealer networks, or for private sale.

"Six of one, half dozen of the other..." I did better, buying when I did, than had I even waited to see 'how it fanned out'...and dropped coin on a MSRP discounted of around $3,000.00-$4,000.00 that potential buyers are seeing on the SVTC market right now in the States.

Sometimes, you have to 'revisit' how YOUR deal went...and happily find, that you still scored like a bandit...and did better than picking up an SVTC even if it would be purchased this week! Life is good...I (in hindsight) didn't take any form of a 'hosing' by purchasing when I did...at the RTM...and enjoyed a fabulous first riding season to boot! I'm not sure (can't remember) if Tony (Chief) traded in a ride, or in looking back, based on all the financials (same for American/Bill), we probably all, didn't truly take a hosing of any kind, EVEN if we purchased what seems, to be at a higher dealer price...why? Because there always is the BOTTOM end of a deal....and more times than not, you need to be ahead of the 'glut' on the trade in and resale market to plush and fatten out that 'bottom end'. That's what I did...and probably, both Tony and Bill did the same....the 'Art of the Deal' is always, right reader?----> about 'timing'. Sometimes you do better by 'getting in there, ahead of the crowd'...sometimes, by 'sitting in the bush' watching... Both purchasing strategies can bring great benefits....as 'getting in there, first' did for myself. :)

Just musing...and thinking 'out loud'... :)


Happy New Year, everyone...and happy trails to those savvy enough to pick one of these diamonds up from their local dealer....again, safe rides for 2019!

Joe
 

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Great commentary Joe!
Appears you did really well with your purchase and you brought up some excellent points. Thanks for sharing with us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Great commentary Joe!
Appears you did really well with your purchase and you brought up some excellent points. Thanks for sharing with us.


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Thanks, Keith for your viewpoint! You know...in musing over my deal, last October...a purchaser can't merely dwell on the 'top end' of the deal...the price the Dealer has the SVTC/Eluder listed for...UNLESS, they are paying in a total cash scenario. But...if there is a trade-in needed to acquire the bike...that opens a quagmire, in that if the dealer (who is not there as a local charity), can't find profit in the asking price...he/she will most certainly look for it at the 'other end of the deal'...the bottom end....the trade in allowance. So...it behooves a potential buyer, to work out a fair 'trade' for all, 'top end' price offered to the dealer for the SVTC, so that the buyer can then negotiate the best trade-in allowance, that dealer will be motivated to allow.

I'd say, (as it was in my deal...) that the 'bottom end' of any deal, is much more important to the buyer, than what the SVTC is being offered for...in that (at least in Canada), the 'trade in allowance' carves out the 13 % GST, on the trade in allotment, so in my case,...Not only did I work out to $14,000.00 for my trade, but saved a whopping $1,820.00 on GST tax that I did not have to pay out on my SVTC purchase. So...again, at least in Canada, it is MUCH better to have a trade-in working in the deal, than merely think one is scoring by buying an SVTC with a $4,000.00 discount off MSRP. For if that is the case...(again, in Canada as the working model...) the buyer would have to pay $3,639.87 in tax over and above the 29,999.00 for the slow-sales, discounted dealer asking price. My 2008 Goldwing, SAVED me $1,820.00 in tax savings! So in reality, I got (NET):

$2,000 off the MSRP
$3,000.00 more than the average trade-in allowance for 2008 Goldwings last October/17 (because I traded in, ahead of the 2018 Goldwing 'want it' stampede...with GL1800's coming out every dealers ears, as well as trade and private asking sale attempts.)
$1,820.00 in (G)oods and (S)ervice (T)ax savings, not having to be paid to the Ontario Government.

Total savings off of the full MSRP SVTC Ontario List: $6,820.00! In my opinion, Keith, the trade-in...and what you can negotiate for it...at the bottom end of the deal, is where all the actual savings accrue

Joe...
 

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If you want to put a figure on it, calculate the total cost of ownership for your bike, divide it by the miles on your odo - see how much it is costing per mile to ride.

Then take your best guess for the expected life of the bike, tires, oil, riding gear... and project it out.

In another thread the topic of whether its less expensive to ride a motorcycle or drive a small car came up. I did the math for my Vstar 650, purchased used 6 years ago for $3,300.

My total cost of ownership and riding so far is over $8,000. Having put over 26k miles on it, that is about 30¢ / mile - about the same as a small car. I do all my own work on my motorcycles.

Thats the bottom line, and your riding gear, insurance.. any expense that is purely from having the motorcycle (like storage or building a shed)... is part of it.

I was stunned that I had spent $8000 to ride my VS650 so far. Dont do the math unless you really want to know.

BTW, the average in the US for driving a car is about 50¢ / mile.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Joe,
I totally agree with your musing.
The truly "best" part of your deal was that you got in a year of riding that beautiful machine whatever the deal.
Have a great 2019 riding season.
Gary
Thank you very much, Gary, and back at you, for your coming '19 days in the sun! :)

My wife and I, already have some great ideas for next where to point the front end of the bike...lol!

Cheers,

Joe
 

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Joe,
I totally agree with your musing.
The truly "best" part of your deal was that you got in a year of riding that beautiful machine whatever the deal.
Have a great 2019 riding season.
Gary
Thank you very much, Gary, and back at you, for your coming '19 days in the sun! /forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

My wife and I, already have some great ideas for next where to point the front end of the bike...lol!

Cheers,

Joe
Well Joe, you guys are welcome to join us on our coast to coast trip later this year.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Well Joe, you guys are welcome to join us on our coast to coast trip later this year.
I know of one riding couple that we spoke with last Summer on the Toronto Waterfront, that will be beaming...and I'll bet you...my dealer is going to contact them with the fact they can skip a year...and get a 2020 model. I hear the word; "SOLD!" in the wind...:)

I was never B.S.ing anybody with any or all of my content...that up here in Canada, the model year sold out...and the new 2020 Blue Mile Eater, has just proved it.... :) Cool that the full 5 year warranty still is offered. I wonder truly how many 2018 SVTC's out of hundreds produced, had any kind of cam lobe face/lifter face issue. Two that we know of? The rest I suggest, ----> were simply Troll Bait....
 

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Well Joe, you guys are welcome to join us on our coast to coast trip later this year.
I know of one riding couple that we spoke with last Summer on the Toronto Waterfront, that will be beaming...and I'll bet you...my dealer is going to contact them with the fact they can skip a year...and get a 2020 model. I hear the word; "SOLD!" in the wind.../forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

I was never B.S.ing anybody with any or all of my content...that up here in Canada, the model year sold out...and the new 2020 Blue Mile Eater, has just proved it.... /forums/images/smilies/smile.gif Cool that the full 5 year warranty still is offered. I wonder truly how many 2018 SVTC's out of hundreds produced, had any kind of cam lobe face/lifter face issue. Two that we know of? The rest I suggest, ----> were simply Troll Bait....
I was one of them and posted pictures to validate the issue.... but that’s been in my rear view mirror for quite a while now. Over 9,000 miles ago and she’s been purring like big cat & chewing up the miles.
Man I love this bike!
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
I was one of them and posted pictures to validate the issue.... but that’s been in my rear view mirror for quite a while now. Over 9,000 miles ago and she’s been purring like big cat & chewing up the miles.
Man I love this bike!
So I wonder Tony...did the first many off the production line, have defective supplier parts, installed into them. Was there something wrong with the hardening of the cam followers in their production? I'm of course crossing my fingers that I don't ever see this arise with mine, or if it does...that we are local, and not half a continent away, on Tour...

But..as you say, if there a problem...it is covered 100 percent...with you only suffering the inconvenience of not riding while things get sorted out. I mean...look at the M8!!!! ***SO*** many problems with that engine/transmission. Every day, a new YouTube on the subject gets posted....

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Milwakey+8+engine+problems
 

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So I wonder Tony...did the first many off the production line, have defective supplier parts, installed into them. Was there something wrong with the hardening of the cam followers in their production? I'm of course crossing my fingers that I don't ever see this arise with mine, or if it does...that we are local, and not half a continent away, on Tour...

But..as you say, if there a problem...it is covered 100 percent...with you only suffering the inconvenience of not riding while things get sorted out. I mean...look at the M8!!!! ***SO*** many problems with that engine/transmission. Every day, a new YouTube on the subject gets posted....

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Milwakey+8+engine+problems
If its cam follower related and the followers are typical followers attached to the bottom of the lifters with roller bearing in them like I am thinking even HD figured out years ago that must be in place to obtain longevity and are using on all their bikes now so wear cant occur between the cam lobes and the lifters. I wonder if the one or two failures may even have been as simple as a bearing issue in the follower. I would find this amazing though because I know the company I work for switched over to all Japanese bearings ("Toyko" or something like that I think it was) a number of years ago due to the high end quality of their bearings. Pretty sure Star Yamaha would not be using off shore bearing followers, especially in a high end, high dollar amazing machine like the SVTC. :wink:
 

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The Yamaha 1854 cc V-Twin is a traditional flat tappet design cam and valve train system.

It uses a cam shaft that operates a lifter, the lifter operates a pushrod and the pushrod operates the rocker arm and the rocker arm operates the valve and valve spring.

This is a simple design that has been around for decades. The issue on the one confirmed failure, I can't find any proof of any other failures was the bottom of the lifter scared and the cam shaft lobe was scared.

The reason this happens on flat tappet cam/valve trains is because the pressure on the bottom of the lifter surface where it meets the cam lobe is far greater than overhead cam engines, and engines that use roller lifters. Engines that use a follower also do not have nearly as much pressure on the cam lobe.

The flat tappet design which is a solid design with decades of proven reliability has to operate a valve train via a long pushrod in the case of this Yamaha V-Twin, that puts extremely high pressure on the cam lobe and the bottom of the lifter where it contacts the cam lobe. ZDDP is an additive that benefits flat tappet cam system because ZDDP coats the metal parts once it heats up so when you cold start the engine you are not metal to metal on the cam lobe and bottom of the lifter but instead you are lubricating the cam lobe and bottom of the lifter with the ZDDP. The ZDDP is a sacrificial coating that wears away as the cam lobe and bottom of the lifter operate but before you get metal to metal the engine has built up oil pressure and the process repeats itself.

A roller cam does not have the high friction on the cam lobe because, well it is a roller so it glides much easier over the cam lobe.

An over head cam engine and cam follower systems also do not have the high friction on the cam lobe.

That is why I recommend running an oil with a high concentration of ZDDP so that the cam lobe and bottom of the lifter will have that known benefit of the sacrificial coating of ZDDP to help protect them.

That is why roller lifters/cams and overheard/cam follower systems do not need the higher levels of ZDDP.
 

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The Yamaha 1854 cc V-Twin is a traditional flat tappet design cam and valve train system.

It uses a cam shaft that operates a lifter, the lifter operates a pushrod and the pushrod operates the rocker arm and the rocker arm operates the valve and valve spring.

This is a simple design that has been around for decades. The issue on the one confirmed failure, I can't find any proof of any other failures was the bottom of the lifter scared and the cam shaft lobe was scared.

The reason this happens on flat tappet cam/valve trains is because the pressure on the bottom of the lifter surface where it meets the cam lobe is far greater than overhead cam engines, and engines that use roller lifters. Engines that use a follower also do not have nearly as much pressure on the cam lobe.

The flat tappet design which is a solid design with decades of proven reliability has to operate a valve train via a long pushrod in the case of this Yamaha V-Twin, that puts extremely high pressure on the cam lobe and the bottom of the lifter where it contacts the cam lobe. ZDDP is an additive that benefits flat tappet cam system because ZDDP coats the metal parts once it heats up so when you cold start the engine you are not metal to metal on the cam lobe and bottom of the lifter but instead you are lubricating the cam lobe and bottom of the lifter with the ZDDP. The ZDDP is a sacrificial coating that wears away as the cam lobe and bottom of the lifter operate but before you get metal to metal the engine has built up oil pressure and the process repeats itself.

A roller cam does not have the high friction on the cam lobe because, well it is a roller so it glides much easier over the cam lobe.

An over head cam engine and cam follower systems also do not have the high friction on the cam lobe.

That is why I recommend running an oil with a high concentration of ZDDP so that the cam lobe and bottom of the lifter will have that known benefit of the sacrificial coating of ZDDP to help protect them.

That is why roller lifters/cams and overheard/cam follower systems do not need the higher levels of ZDDP.
If I am following this correctly and understanding this, the SVTC does NOT then have cam shaft "followers" as mentioned earlier? Is this correct? If so, is there a particular reason for Star to have chosen not using followers with bearings? Is it because of the higher pressures the larger SVTC engine places on the cam lobes? - that seems backwards, it seems like followers would actually be needed more in that application instead of one flat surface of metal just riding on another flat surface of metal:surprise:. Confused again..
Concerning "ZDDP" in oils. Is Yamaha's "YamaLube" specifically suggested in the owners manual for use in the bike and if so, I wonder what level of "ZDDP" there is in the YamahLube that the factory engineers suggest using?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
If I am following this correctly and understanding this, the SVTC does NOT then have cam shaft "followers" as mentioned earlier? Is this correct? If so, is there a particular reason for Star to have chosen not using followers with bearings? Is it because of the higher pressures the larger SVTC engine places on the cam lobes? - that seems backwards, it seems like followers would actually be needed more in that application instead of one flat surface of metal just riding on another flat surface of metal:surprise:. Confused again..
Concerning "ZDDP" in oils. Is Yamaha's "YamaLube" specifically suggested in the owners manual for use in the bike and if so, I wonder what level of "ZDDP" there is in the YamahLube that the factory engineers suggest using?
I use the word, follower, as anything that the cam enacts upon, whether a solid surface, a bearing, whatever...that which is pushed up and down by the elliptical facing of the cam lobe. Everything, 'follows' the cam lobe profile.
 
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