Yamaha Starbike Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have an '02 V-Star Silverado. I started experiencing occasional bouts of being unable to successfully start the bike. The "cranking effort" would go on and on. Sometimes , if I left it alone a while it would start right up. Other times I would wear the battery down, listening to the starter whine. Got progressively worse, until now wont start.

I'm told it is the starter clutch (one-way clutch)

Is this a common problem with the V-Star?

Thanks for any help
V-Starter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,531 Posts
Clear

v Starter,

I'm not clear, is the starter cranking the engine over but it does not start? Or, is the starter turning without cranking the engine over?

If the engine is turning over I would look more at ignition or fuel. If only the starter is turning then the starter clutch could be the problem.

Read this.
http://www.sloneservices.com/SilverBack/VStar1100-FAQ-08.htm#Starter

Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
Sounds like your starter sprag clutch is shagged dude. Very common problem with the 1100's from 99 to 2002.

Like you I got stung by this, mine's a 2002 too. Apparently they sorted the problem with the 2003 model onward. I'd always wondered why spares websites listed the XVS 1100 as 99-02 and 03-10 models.... that's the difference.
The way they sorted it was by replacing the starter motor with an "updated" version which has a "torque limiting clutch" which allows the engine kickback on shutdown. Before, when the engine shuts down, depending on where the pistons are at that moment, the crank could rotate backwards a few degrees before it finally comes to a complete stop. This causes the starter motor to be turned by the engine, causing twisted starter motor bolts you may read about on tinterwebnetz.
The reason is, the starter clutch (sprag clutch) can only turn in one direction and lock up in the other direction. So when your starter turns the sprags in the starter clutch catch the crank and turns it, and engine then starts.
When the engine starts, the crank turns faster than the starter motor and this is allowed for by the starter clutch.
It's kinda hard to get it pictured in your head.

But anyway, the thing is the engine kickback on shutdown turns the starter sprag clutch in the direction it doesn't go. So this unwanted torque is manifested in 2 ways - a) your starter motor gets twisted, b) starter clutch sprags get worn from this shearing torque turning it the way its not supposed to go. Eventually the sprags can't grip the crank anymore and BOOOYA your starter turns but your engine doesn't.

Do you remember a kind of short and sharp clutch grinding noise when you shutdown the engine? I have a video of mine doing it. I should post it...
That's the sound of your sprag clutch being worn down.

Mine began by making a whacking noise on startup, turns out it was the worn sprags engaging suddenly when the motor was turning full speed, as opposed to engaging when the motor begins to turn.
But I had the clutch grind/scrape noise on shutdown since day 1 (bought the bike last November with 3k miles on it, 12k on it now :D)

So anyway Yamaha's new updated starter motor is in fact very very similar to the old one. The old one has the same torque limiting clutch in it, just it has a higher torque setting - so the new motor gives way to the kickback (lower torque setting) where the old one would hold tight and hence get twisted starter bolts on the starter housing.
I've opened up both the old and new starter motors and took pics, I really should post them too.

So in the end I replaced the starter motor, as if you replace the starter clutch on it's own, it will get worn down again due to the engine kickback not being allowed for by the starter motor.
So you need the new motor to take this punishment so the starter clutch doesn't have to. Look for part number 5EL8189001 on ebay (make sure it's not 5EL8189000, that's the old one), cheapest you'll get it. They know you need it so they charge you an arm & a leg.

You'll have to replace the starter clutch too - part number 5EL1559000. Cheapest place I found it was here.

As for the starter idler gear part number 5EL1551711, I didn't bother getting a new one of these (more expense) but the surface of mine was scored by the sprags scraping it. So I put mine in a lathe and polished it off.
Check out the zoomable PDF here for a picture of the parts I'm talking about.


One thing you can do in the mean time, I found from experimenting with my own, is put your bike in 2nd gear, let the clutch out and roll the bike backwards (engine off of course) before starting. This motion engages the sprags in the sprag (starter) clutch. So doing it in advance like this should help it to "catch" the motor crank and turn it to get it started.

So yes, you have been officially stung.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Hey Flush,

Thanks for the detailed writeup. I'm new here and am having very similar issues to what you have described here. I have a 2000 1100 with 21k miles. It has been very well kept with good maintenance. I find the bike hard to start. I would say the starter engages and spins the motor but sometimes cuts out with a clunk when starting. The engine also often shuts off with a clunk. I have checked the starter casing bolts and they appear not to be bent. The previous owner told me he replaced the starter not long ago. Would you mind to post the pictures and sound file you talked about please?

Thanks again for your very informative post. I look forward to your reply!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
Hey Flush,

Thanks for the detailed writeup. I'm new here and am having very similar issues to what you have described here. I have a 2000 1100 with 21k miles. It has been very well kept with good maintenance. I find the bike hard to start. I would say the starter engages and spins the motor but sometimes cuts out with a clunk when starting. The engine also often shuts off with a clunk. I have checked the starter casing bolts and they appear not to be bent. The previous owner told me he replaced the starter not long ago. Would you mind to post the pictures and sound file you talked about please?

Thanks again for your very informative post. I look forward to your reply!
Sorry for your troubles dude.


This is a good example of the clutch grind sound on shutdown I get about 50% of the time I shutdown.

I'd expect to have your problem even if the starter was replaced, as replacing the starter only helps to minimize the chance of the problem reoccurring, IF you replaced the starter clutch assembly too.

I replaced my starter too but not the starter clutch assembly, and the grinding continued.......... so did the whack on startup.

So then I replaced the starter clutch too.... and STILL got the grinding..... but at least the painful sounding whack on startup stopped, as I had anticipated.


So I guess the same thing is happening you;

> the engine kicks back on shutdown, turning the one-way starter clutch in the direction it is supposed to lock up in
> the starter motor gets twisted in absorbing the kickback and/or the starter clutch grinds (you & me didn't get the twisted starter, we got the grind, meaning the starter clutch gave up before the starter motor did)
> the starter clutch sprags are now worn, meaning the clutch slips and gives this grind noise on shutdown
> but the starter motor is fine, as the clutch is now absorbing the kickback and not the starter motor
> after such mileage as 21k the clutch is very worn and is slipping more and more, making it harder to start

Other things you should check if starting is hard is spark plugs etc. For what it's worth, during the winter etc i always had to start the bike twice when it was cold - even with the choke wide open... I'd hit the starter with choke open, bike kicks to life instantly, but dies a few seconds later as the choke on the 1100 seems to take a few secs to kick in :rolleyes: so then I hit the starter again and this time it stays going.



I'll upload a few pics of the starters here (old one is dirty, new one is clean), no difference really, but the new one's spindle appeared to turn by hand with very slightly less force than the old one... meaning it's torque slip clutch setting was slightly lower. Wanted to verify this with a torque wrench but no socket (imperial or metric) would fit the cog on the end of the spindle.


So it looks like you'll have to replace your starter clutch, but this will only get rid of the start-up noise... maybe you'll get lucky and it will get rid of both noises :)
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
I have read elsewhere on this forum as well as several other places that both clunks (startup and shutdown) could be caused by an out of adjustment TPS. I don't have the right Torx bit to loosen mine (want to get other bolts anyway) and check to see if it is within the recommendations. Have you happened to check your TPS? Set your idle speed to 1000 RPM and then check resistance on the TPS for closed and wide open throttle?
Adjustment link:http://www.sloneservices.com/SilverBack/Other-Stuff/TPS-Test-Adjust.pdf

TPS connector location: http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii216/poppa_/TPSconnectorundertank.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
Yep I've checked the TPS a few times, never out of spec. So in my case at least it has nothing to do with the clunk. I fail to see through what mechanism the TPS could cause this problem, it governs the ignition timing.

Here's the TPS check I did the other day (extract from maintenance log)

10 july 2010 - 13040 miles
Throttle position sensor checked, gives 5.05 k ohms with + on blue and - on black (range 4-6k ohms), and then 0.79 k ohms between + yellow and -
black with throttle closed (spec 0.56 - 0.84 k ohms) and then 3.89 with throttle wide open (spec 3.01 to 4.51 k ohms).


You don't need to take off the Torx screws to check the sensor is within spec - you only need to take of the screws to adjust the TPS if it is outside spec.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
I think if the TPS is out of adjustment, the ignition timing is not advanced / retarded properly causing the issue. I haven't had the opportunity to check mine out yet. The reason I mentioned the Torx bolts was because I wanted to replace them with allen heads. It also appears that improper starting procedure causes this also. See the information here: http://www.sloneservices.com/SilverBack/VStar1100-FAQ-08.htm

I am going to check my TPS before getting into a starter clutch. A defective starter clutch certainly makes sense to me when starting the bike. The clutch being worn doesn't allow the starter to engage the motor properly, or at all in some cases. Causing a free spinning starter, or possibly a kickback (which I have experienced) My starter always engages the motor, but stops with a clunk sometimes. I'm not sure about the clunk when shutting down. Doesn't make sense to me how a worn starter clutch could cause a clunk on shutdown, but I may not be seeing the whole picture. Maybe the starter clutch is not made well from the beginning. I just want to get whatever is causing the issue fixed so I can get back to riding without feeling like something isn't quite right with my bike. :) Thanks for all the information, videos and pictures. By the way, my bike sounds just like your video!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
To know for sure I'd have to see the bike being shutdown with the left crankcase cover off, but from all my investigations that's the only conclusion I can come to - the engine kickback causes the clutch grind noise by turning the starter clutch in the direction it is not supposed to go.
Engine turns the crank in only one direction - this is the same direction as the starter motor turns the crank - but to stop the engine turning the starter motor once it has began running, this is why a starter clutch turns in one direction only and locks up in the other direction.
If you turn a sprag clutch in the "lock up" direction with enough force it will of course slip and make some sort of clutch grinding noise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
I have a 2002 Vstar 1100 classic. I had 2 starter clutches replaced. First one was either installed incorrectly or it was a defect, the second had to be reinstalled since it was done incorrectly. Both were covered by the stealership.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Hey all, just finished the successful repair of this dreaded starter clutch issue and I got a lot of good info from this forum and others so I wanted to "give back" because I encountered quite a few issues that I didn't see covered on existing posts. Believe me, I spent weeks scouring the interwebs for this stuff. I followed the Joe Conway instructions btw so a lot of this will reference those. This was on a 1999 1100 Classic with 17k miles as well for reference.

1) Lining up engine timing. I rolled the engine over several times and was never able to get all three timing marks to line up. The rear cam gear was always exactly 180 degrees out of phase when the flywheel and timing gear were lined up. I want to say I found a forum once that discussed this but couldn't find it again. Needless to say, if you notice this on your bike you were not alone. Eventually I decided to take the plunge and start disassembling with this out of phase. I marked several spots with a sharpie to help getting it back together easier. In the end, this was OK.

2) Removing the flywheel. Several people have commented on this being hard but I'm here to say it was darn near impossible. I borrowed a harmonic balancer puller from AutoZone which fit with great and cranked that sucker down with an electric impact... nothing happened. I soaked the entire area with PB blaster and ATF+acetone and let it sit for hours, days, hitting the center bolt with a hammer, sledge, ball peen hammer, rubber mallet, anythign else hard that was sitting around. Nothing. I literally did this at least once a day for over a week with nothing. I left the puller tension on at all times and also had the nut on still as was recommended. Then suddenly one day i came out to the garage, ran the bolt down again with the impact and pop there it came. Don't give up, dont do anything stupid like I almost did in a fit of anger.

3) Removing the one way gear from the flywheel. Just when I thought I was through removing stuck things I couldnt get the one way assembly from the back of the flywheel. Again I went to my first instict which was soak it in ATF+acetone and bang on it which didn't work. Finally I was tired of this and decided to put the entire thing in my freezer for a few days. Then took it out, secured it in a vice and put the propane torch to the backside with the one way assembly on it. Once it was heated up to a reasonable temp (able to touch the one was assembly briefly with a bare hand) I beat on it again and it popped off. Note, there is a rim around the outside of the flywheel that keeps that thing in there, it will not just slide off. Even when I put a thin layer of oil on the surface to protect against rust and put the new piece down it was hard to get it back up, the oil film between the two very flat surfaces creates a suction that is pretty tough to break.

4) What parts to replace. This was the most stressful part of the entire process. I was aware that Yamaha released a kit of parts to replace that runs ~350 on ebay (OEM, aftermarket is a little cheaper). However this didn't make sense to me because I could tell no discernable design difference between the old design and new besides the bushings and increased size of the new twin gear between the starter and one way assembly. When you think about this, the bushings basically make a the new bearing surface the bushing instead of the crankcase/side cover. Who cares, the shaft surface wasn't scored and this only spins during starting. I don't see why a bearing was needed there. Also for the added "damping mass" based on the amount of force the engine would kick back with upon shutdown I didn't think this was significant. My gears and everything else that would have been replaced in the new kit looked great so I elected to only replace the parts I felt were truly contribution to the failure. I found a kit with the one way assembly and gear that fits in there for $189 on ebay. This was not OEM by the way, I figured if the engineers at Yamaha got this so wrong in their design and failed to fix it for so long then I owed the aftermarket guys with their solution a try. This fit great, no complaints at all.

5) Torquing the flywheel bolt. Just when I thought I was home free, how to get 127 ft lb on a flywhel bolt. I am not really a stickler on torques except two things: 1) items which contain flammable fluids and 2) things that spin really fast. Therefore I wanted to make sure I hit 127 at a minimum. I put the bike in gear, lowered it to a cinder block on the floor since the jack won't make it all the way down. Tried to torque and it kicked the block out. Then as extra I had someone sit on the b**** seat and put a 400 lb workbench behind the block. Second try, this sucker moved the entire bike on a jack forward across the concrete floor. Finally I thought about the little hole in the rear timing gear that when the timing is all lined up sits right up against the crankcase. I stuck a allen wrench in that and stepped up my torques from 70 ftlb to 130 ftlb. That sucker bent but it held, got to 130 and called it done.

Hopefully this is helpful to anyone else who had half the trouble I did with this. This job isn't that bad, just take your time and dont force anything. Hope this is helpful to anyone who encounters some of the roadblocks I did.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Hi all, a year ago my middle drive shaft failed so i took the bike to the dealer to fix this. They removed the engine and replaced the parts. When they gave me back my 2006 V-Star 1100 it was running OK but the exhaust sound was different. It's not much of an argument and I couldn't convince them that something is not right...
Now i'm changing starter clutch myself following instructions by Joe Conway. I'm having trouble lining up my timing. When flywheel and lower gear is lined up the cam gear is 180 degrees off. This probably why my exhaust started to sound differently.
Anyway, is it critical to have all 3 parts lined up? How to rotate cam gear 180? Any available instructions?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Demian if you see my post I had the same 180 off. Thinking about the four stroke cycle I think you would know pretty quickly if you were actually 180 off on your cam. You would not run at all because your cam would be one cycle off your crank.

As long as you keep the same exact gear timing during the procedure during the clutch change it doesn't matter your gear alignment. The great part about aligning how Joe Conway describes is that if you get a little off as you move things around you can easily align it back based on timing marks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Sounds like your starter sprag clutch is shagged dude. Very common problem with the 1100's from 99 to 2002.

Like you I got stung by this, mine's a 2002 too. Apparently they sorted the problem with the 2003 model onward. I'd always wondered why spares websites listed the XVS 1100 as 99-02 and 03-10 models.... that's the difference.
The way they sorted it was by replacing the starter motor with an "updated" version which has a "torque limiting clutch" which allows the engine kickback on shutdown. Before, when the engine shuts down, depending on where the pistons are at that moment, the crank could rotate backwards a few degrees before it finally comes to a complete stop. This causes the starter motor to be turned by the engine, causing twisted starter motor bolts you may read about on tinterwebnetz.
The reason is, the starter clutch (sprag clutch) can only turn in one direction and lock up in the other direction. So when your starter turns the sprags in the starter clutch catch the crank and turns it, and engine then starts.
When the engine starts, the crank turns faster than the starter motor and this is allowed for by the starter clutch.
It's kinda hard to get it pictured in your head.

But anyway, the thing is the engine kickback on shutdown turns the starter sprag clutch in the direction it doesn't go. So this unwanted torque is manifested in 2 ways - a) your starter motor gets twisted, b) starter clutch sprags get worn from this shearing torque turning it the way its not supposed to go. Eventually the sprags can't grip the crank anymore and BOOOYA your starter turns but your engine doesn't.

Do you remember a kind of short and sharp clutch grinding noise when you shutdown the engine? I have a video of mine doing it. I should post it...
That's the sound of your sprag clutch being worn down.

Mine began by making a whacking noise on startup, turns out it was the worn sprags engaging suddenly when the motor was turning full speed, as opposed to engaging when the motor begins to turn.
But I had the clutch grind/scrape noise on shutdown since day 1 (bought the bike last November with 3k miles on it, 12k on it now :D)

So anyway Yamaha's new updated starter motor is in fact very very similar to the old one. The old one has the same torque limiting clutch in it, just it has a higher torque setting - so the new motor gives way to the kickback (lower torque setting) where the old one would hold tight and hence get twisted starter bolts on the starter housing.
I've opened up both the old and new starter motors and took pics, I really should post them too.

So in the end I replaced the starter motor, as if you replace the starter clutch on it's own, it will get worn down again due to the engine kickback not being allowed for by the starter motor.
So you need the new motor to take this punishment so the starter clutch doesn't have to. Look for part number 5EL8189001 on ebay (make sure it's not 5EL8189000, that's the old one), cheapest you'll get it. They know you need it so they charge you an arm & a leg.

You'll have to replace the starter clutch too - part number 5EL1559000. Cheapest place I found it was here.

As for the starter idler gear part number 5EL1551711, I didn't bother getting a new one of these (more expense) but the surface of mine was scored by the sprags scraping it. So I put mine in a lathe and polished it off.
Check out the zoomable PDF here for a picture of the parts I'm talking about.


One thing you can do in the mean time, I found from experimenting with my own, is put your bike in 2nd gear, let the clutch out and roll the bike backwards (engine off of course) before starting. This motion engages the sprags in the sprag (starter) clutch. So doing it in advance like this should help it to "catch" the motor crank and turn it to get it started.

So yes, you have been officially stung.
Wrong on the year issue was fixed. I have an 93 VStar 1100 and facing the same issue now.
 

·
Administrator - "Loose Nut" - Houston, Texas
2001 Vstar 1100 Classic (sold), 2006 HD Electra Glide Ultra Classic
Joined
·
13,920 Posts
Wrong on the year issue was fixed. I have an 93 VStar 1100 and facing the same issue now.
This is a 7 year old thread, might not get much traction. Yamaha did redesign the starter clutch to help reduce failure rate, but if improper engine start is preformed, the starter clutch is still vulnerable. Interesting you have 93 Vstar 1100, they were built from 98 to 08.

98467


Here's Yamaha Bulletin on starter clutch failure and reasons:
98468


Also noticed this was your first post, if you post an introduction in the New Members section we can get to know you.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top